32 replies to this topic

[Zureal]

Xhaleon, on 19 December 2011 - 02:10 AM, said:

Ahem... What OP described was basically Capture the Flag, which is a necessary component of any good game.

Sorta, but it is different when you have to PROTECT the flag, get the flag back to the DS, and at the same time protect yourself.

[Zureal]

I am simply trying to point out things that would be possible in game to do with hands on a mech that does not have anything directly to do with combat. Things that would give you different tactical and strategic options to acheave your objective.

Like for instance, lets say my lance is trying to go destroy objective x, in the way is enemy lance y, in my lance I have a Archer, a long range missile boat. Now, not to far away is a small platou that has no easy access and vertical cliffs. I tell the Archer to climb said Platou in order to have a easier time shooting those LRMs and with more accuracy while at the same time keeping him much safer. The rest of my lance and I will go and start shooting in the enemy lances face while Archer provides accurat support.

This is what I mean by uses of hands, the Archer climbed the cliff face to get to the top and so provides me with a tactical advantage over the enemy.

[Ghost]

I'm reminded of the Steel Battalion "manipulator arm." Necessary for picking up ammo, loot, people, opening large 'Mech-sized doors, and so on.

[Omigir]

Hmm.. I could think of a few game types this would be fun in.. like 'capture the bacon'

^A game from elementry school. Nutural 'item' at center of map. The whole point is to get said bacon to your 'base'. I think assasins creed calls it artifact? Or halo calls it 'single capture the flag'

[Zureal]

Aegis Kleais™, on 19 December 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

Sorry, not a fan. Any form of manual dexterity in a Mech changes it in my eyes from a war machine to a human-sized suit of armor. A Mech is a very advanced piece of weaponry, and those advancements are usually used to assist the pilot in battlefield operations. But grasping onto salvage externally doesn't sound like the role of a weapons platform. Instead you would secure the salvage and then await transport units to load it and move out. Each machine has its role that it is designed for.

Wait, so you are saying that If im on a mission to get something, that is defended, and I get to this thing, and my only "logical" option is to simply sit and WAIT while hostiles are trying to kill me for some people in trucks come to grab it? That makes no sane sens! I would sure as hell grab it with my hands so I can get out of dodge as fast as possible!

[Xhaleon]

Aegis Kleais™, on 20 December 2011 - 09:33 AM, said:

snippy snippy

Sigh...

One of the entire points of the humanoid mech is that they possess extra abilities that have no negative effect to combat whatsoever.
It does not matter whether it has hands or not for ranged combat, but it gives it an advantage against mechs and vehicles when caught in a melee. Having lower arms gives a wider field of fire and faster target acquisition for a mech, even though that is not properly represented in the turn-based tabletop.

Being more vulnerable? The arms are hardly easy targets to shoot at when at range, you aim for the center torso instead. Having the arm stick out has absolutely negligible negative effect, and has every positive effect for shooting.

And there are strategic and tactical maneuvers that are only possible with humanoid mechs with hands, particularly when moving a force silently through mountains to flank the enemy, without the blaring alarm that are jump jets. Destroying a light building is easier with articulated hands, which could allow ground-locked units to punch right through several streets and surround the enemy without exposing themselves to anti-air fire.

Gah, I might be going off on too much of a tangent here. Look, at the very least within the Battletech universe, humanoid mechs are vehicles that sacrifice very little of their durability in return for massive gains in tactical flexibility. They retain most of the simple concept of firepower as their treaded cousins do, but then add on a myriad of abilities that enhances it beyond any normal vehicle without compromising their basic fighting ability. To remove those articulated arms and hands is to throw away all of the useful abilities for only a marginal increase in ranged combat aptitude. The humanoid form is the one that gives all these abilities completely naturally by its design, and performs 80% of the many jobs of other specialized vehicles, without having to spend any extra money on designing it for a specific job!

A battlemech is a multipurpose vehicle that shoots just as well as any other vehicle, but has many more useful abilities that enhance its overall war-utility at no real cost to its basic fighting ability! That is the entire point, and you are missing it! Battlemechs are still the king of the battlefield in the post-Jihad and beyond for a good reason, both in-universe and by rational explanations! I am going to throw exclamation marks at you because you made me this exasperated!

Gah!

[acheronlv426]

Maybe we just have to wait for the neural helmets for hands to be useful. Do only unseen mechs have hands or are there more of them?

[CeeKay Boques]

Xhaleon, on 20 December 2011 - 09:58 AM, said:

Sigh...
I am going to throw exclamation marks at you because you made me this exasperated!

Gah!

Bro, why throw exclamation points when you can throw Cars? Throw a car, you'll feel better.

[VYCanis]

Xhaleon, on 20 December 2011 - 09:58 AM, said:

stuffity stuff

ding ding ding, this right here.

you have a giant sturdy robotic chassis,
you put loadsa guns on it, it has the firepower of a tank, it is armored like a tank, its used more or less like a tank

however, that does not stop it from being a giant sturdy robotic chassis.

it has all sorts of articulation that can be taken advantage of that adds to the overall utility in and out of combat.

Edited by VYCanis, 20 December 2011 - 11:07 AM.

[BarHaid]

YES. This is BattleTech (everyone else throws that phrase around, so I shall too); It is giant robot combat, not giant tank combat. It would be so nice to finally be able to do actual raids, where the mechs with hands ****** up shipping containers full of parts, and the mechs without hands provide covering fire.

[CaveMan]

acheronlv426, on 20 December 2011 - 10:06 AM, said:

Maybe we just have to wait for the neural helmets for hands to be useful. Do only unseen mechs have hands or are there more of them?

Uh, look in any of the TRO books. You'll find many, if not most, designs have hands.







None of those are unseens.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Zureal..Mechs can't climb like you suggest, not even close, mainly due to the fact that trying climb up a cliff in a 20+ ton machine would just pull the cliff down on you..not get you up the cliff Jump Jets are how you get to higher ground that has no path you can walk up. Or..and I've done this in TT, you can create a path with weapons fire

Mechs with hands are capable of using those hands, it IS why they are there, they aren't cosmetic. And they aren't controlled by the neurohelmet, they are controlled via joysticks and waldo devices, that's covered in the BTech rule books AND the novels, same as walking is controlled via foot pedals/rudders, not the neurohelmet.

Now, we've never had a MW or any other BTech based computer game where we could USE the hands on a Mech for a simple reason, they never had a reason to do it. Yep..that simple, never been a reason to do it. None of them have done physical combat, so hands that could grab stuff, not needed. Doing raids/****** and grabs..eh..just have the player secure the area and call in a team to remove the material or have them secure the area, use a cutscene and move on!

Now, as to how hard it would be to give us usable hands in MWO..no idea really, I know the engine supports the player interacting with their enviroment in a limited fashion, enough to do physical melee combat at least, even picking up 'set pieces' for use as a weapon. But getting it working right and...just as importantly, LOOKING right..ah..there's the deal breaker.

PGI WANTS to do it, but they won't add it until it's right. So..lets continue to give them ideas for game play based on stuff they've said themselves they want to give us..like the OP has done. No reason to decry it, it's a good idea, sounds like it would be a fun objective, and it shows PGI that we want MORE then just pew pew pew all day long.

[Brenden]

Wouldn't it be possible for a Battlemech with hands too kneel down, pick up a car, stand back up with said car and lob it at the other opponent? Or at the very least give him/her/it the finger?