40 replies to this topic

[Cato Zilks]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 July 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

The problems with the Heavy laser family are:

Ghost heat limit too low - If I want a larger ghost-heat free alpha on a lighter mech, I should be taking HMLs, not ER MLs. As is currently, I can only take 4 HMLs for 40 damage, vs 6 ER MLs for 42 damage. Dumb.

They are super hot - I tried some HL loadouts on a MAD-IIC, and its just too damn hot, not worth the loss in range and extra duration for only a marginal increase in damage.

Duration - I would say this is fine if the issues mentioned above were fixed.

Frankly I don't see much point to heavy lasers, except for MAYBE HSLs and even then, the DPS is awfully limited. I guess they may see niche use on Shadow Cats or other hardpoint starved mechs, but... meh.

There just arent that many hardpoint starved mechs that have the space to also bring a bunch of heatsinks. I have yet to find anything that these are good for (except direstar type lol mechs)

[Cato Zilks]

And anything that is hardpoint starved usually benefits from having better heat efficiency and added range (see shadowcat).

[HGAK47]

Lower Alpha, higher rate of fire with good heat eff. = DPS weapon.

Higher alpha, lower rate of fire less heat eff. = Alpha weapon. (However this doesnt take into account that both have to be able to deliver damage, its no good if the "high alpha" weapon takes 2 years to burn...)

Thing is it gets more complicated if you now try and fit in medium all rounders and then sniping weapons. Were half way there, I hope we can see further refinements for the next PTS session.

[Gas Guzzler]

HGAK47, on 05 July 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

Lower Alpha, higher rate of fire with good heat eff. = DPS weapon.

Higher alpha, lower rate of fire less heat eff. = Alpha weapon. (However this doesnt take into account that both have to be able to deliver damage, its no good if the "high alpha" weapon takes 2 years to burn...)

Thing is it gets more complicated if you now try and fit in medium all rounders and then sniping weapons. Were half way there, I hope we can see further refinements for the next PTS session.

This goes back to the fact that when looking at the medium laser family, you get a higher "pre ghost heat" alpha with ER MLs than you do with HMLs. That is dumb, when the whole purpose of the weapon is to do a lot of damage at the cost of heat and DPS (and duration).

[Tim East]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 July 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

This goes back to the fact that when looking at the medium laser family, you get a higher "pre ghost heat" alpha with ER MLs than you do with HMLs. That is dumb, when the whole purpose of the weapon is to do a lot of damage at the cost of heat and DPS (and duration).

You pay 4 more heat for 2 more damage at half again the range and 21.8% MORE damage per burn tick. To say nothing of the cooldown difference. ERML is better than HML by basically any measurement I can think to use except damage per ton.

[Jackal Noble]

Pretty sure the HLL is the only weapon with higher heat than it's actual damage output.

[Antares102]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 July 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

This goes back to the fact that when looking at the medium laser family, you get a higher "pre ghost heat" alpha with ER MLs than you do with HMLs. That is dumb, when the whole purpose of the weapon is to do a lot of damage at the cost of heat and DPS (and duration).

This is exactly what I thought about Heavy Lasers and mediums in particular.
If 6x ERML can do 42 damage why limit the "High Alpha" weapons to 40 damage.
Makes no sense. Only if they did 60 damage before GH they would some sort of interesting.
I mean even the DPS weapons (i.e. pulse) have a higher alpha than the so called alpha weapons, in fact they have the highest. Makes no sense to me.

Edited by Antares102, 05 July 2017 - 12:11 PM.

[JadePanther]

JackalBeast, on 05 July 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

Pretty sure the HLL is the only weapon with higher heat than it's actual damage output.

Is heavy ppc and erppc are horrible on heat too, both over...

the heavy line should be short HEAVY burst damage.. pulse are the mdium DPS.. and ER's are long range long burn efficient weapons..

thats the way i see the hierarchy..

[davoodoo]

JackalBeast, on 05 July 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

Pretty sure the HLL is the only weapon with higher heat than it's actual damage output.

It is, but then heat is still lower than tt.

18 heat 16 dmg in tt
17 heat here.

[Gas Guzzler]

Antares102, on 05 July 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

This is exactly what I thought about Heavy Lasers and mediums in particular.
If 6x ERML can do 42 damage why limit the "High Alpha" weapons to 40 damage.
Makes no sense. Only if they did 60 damage before GH they would some sort of interesting.
I mean even the DPS weapons (i.e. pulse) have a higher alpha than the so called alpha weapons, in fact they have the highest. Makes no sense to me.

Yeah, and even that would be extremely hot, short ranged, and cumbersome due to the duration.

[ShadeofHades]

I tried doing exactly that with an SHC. I think it would have been interesting, if questionably effective, had I been able to fire all 3 HLLs without being thrown over 100% (2 put me at 50%, 3 should have been 75)...but when you can only fire 2, there's no reason not to prefer the comparatively cold ERLL.

[Y E O N N E]

ShadeofHades, on 05 July 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

I tried doing exactly that with an SHC. I think it would have been interesting, if questionably effective, had I been able to fire all 3 HLLs without being thrown over 100% (2 put me at 50%, 3 should have been 75)...but when you can only fire 2, there's no reason not to prefer the comparatively cold ERLL.

2x cHLL + 1x cERML. Roughly similar performance to a BJ-1X trading duration for JJs, MASC, and ECM.

Eh. Seems pretty fair to me. I feel that duration should be slightly shorter on HLL and perhaps cool-down, too, but the heat is right where it needs to be to keep such lasers useful on starved 'Mechs and less useful when massed on something like a MAD-IIC. I am okay with that being their niche.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 July 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

2x cHLL + 1x cERML. Roughly similar performance to a BJ-1X trading duration for JJs, MASC, and ECM.

Eh. Seems pretty fair to me. I feel that duration should be slightly shorter on HLL and perhaps cool-down, too, but the heat is right where it needs to be to keep such lasers useful on starved 'Mechs and less useful when massed on something like a MAD-IIC. I am okay with that being their niche.

I think a HBK should be able to run 6 HMLs without GH though.

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 July 2017 - 04:52 PM, said:

I think a HBK should be able to run 6 HMLs without GH though.

I don't disagree. I think 42 heat is enough to keep that in check at 300 meters. My own laser tables had all of the Heavy lasers sharing GH values (and linkages) with their ER and Pulse counterparts, because the built-in heat did the job well enough.

[Mjr Disaster]

Given their shorter range they should be made as a short range/high DPS for high heat/low tonnage laser, although they are still too large (I mean 3 crit slots for a HLL really?), basically a higher DPS than Pulse lasers, but with a longer burn time and more heat at a shorter range.

[Widowmaker1981]

No, the problem with heavy lasers is that short range + long duration = bad. I dont care what their DPS/Ton is, energy builds are limited by slots (which HLs take more of) and heat... the HLL especially is vying for worst weapon in the entire game with its stats. You do NOT give a 450m range laser with over 1.5 seconds duration worse damage per heat than an 810m PPFLD ERPPC.

[Khobai]

Quote

No, the problem with heavy lasers is that short range + long duration = bad.

you forgot long cooldown and high heat too

short range + long duration + long cooldown + high heat = super !@#$ing bad

they took ALL of the worst possible characteristics for lasers and put them all on one horrible weapon and somehow expected it to work? lol.

wanna fix heavy lasers? start by removing any 2 of the above flaws. since we already have ERs for range and pulses for duration, id say lowering the cooldown and heat are the best 2 flaws to remove. especially heat because 17 heat for 16 damage is just abysmal.

Edited by Khobai, 07 July 2017 - 11:52 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

wanna fix heavy lasers? start by removing any 2 of the above flaws. since we already have ERs for range and pulses for duration, id say lowering the cooldown and heat are the best 2 flaws to remove. especially heat because 17 heat for 16 damage is just abysmal.

To be honest, unless they were to get insane, never going to happen levels of damage per heat i still wouldnt use them. Staring for ages at short range is a surefire route to doing badly.

Reducing the heat on the HLL is a no brainer though - cos yes, PGI, DoT weapons are worse than PPFLD weapons, even with hitscan, so you have to give the DoT weapons better damage per heat or they are useless. Especially when they are also short ranged.

Damage per ton is almost completely irrelevant for Clan energy weapons, since the good builds are already completely maxed on slots and as such fitting lighter bigger weapons tends to just leave you with free tonnage.. you might get back to the same level of heatsinks by dropping ferro, if you can. The only thing Dmg/T is good for in this case is fitting to really small mechs... and lights are the absolute last class that want to be standing still staring at someone for 1.55s... lol.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 07 July 2017 - 12:01 PM.

[Khobai]

I agree heavy lasers are never going to be widely used

I think the goal needs to be to get heavy lasers to the point where theyre at least usable as a niche weapon on clan mechs that lack energy hardpoints. since a heavy laser is basically 2 lasers that only use 1 hardpoint.

if the cooldown was lowered and the heat was lowered I think they could fill that niche.

Edited by Khobai, 07 July 2017 - 12:04 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

I agree heavy lasers are never going to be widely used

I think the goal needs to be to get heavy lasers to the point where theyre at least used as a niche weapon on clan mechs that lack energy hardpoints. since a heavy laser is basically 2 lasers that only use 1 hardpoint.

if the cooldown was lowered and the heat was lowered I think they could fill that niche.

Which mechs would use HLLs though?

Shadow Cats also dont want to be staring at things for that long from 450m.. Imo PPCs / LPLs will be far superior.

Ice Fridge would run HMLs if anything as its so tonnage limited.

You mean stuff like Orion-IICs? I guess you could pair them with dakka on something, since you're staring anyway..

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 07 July 2017 - 12:09 PM.