66 replies to this topic

[kapusta11]

Sidefire, on 01 July 2017 - 11:21 PM, said:

Yeah, as soon as they gain 3 tons and 2 crit slots.

And lose some range.

[Brain Cancer]

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They are at least better than C-AC20s, which must have been an April fools joke some year.

Paul literally left them in the game as a placeholder while attempting to make real LB-X autocannons.

Even after failing, they were never removed or refunded and continue to stink up Clan chassis to this day.

[Y E O N N E]

kapusta11, on 03 July 2017 - 12:22 AM, said:

And lose some range.

More range than they were supposed to lose, even.

[Grus]

El Bandito, on 02 July 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

You mean the crappy IS UAC10 that players cant even boat two on Std side torso while Clanners can boat on CXL with two more slots to spare? The IS UAC2 that has worse range than CUAC2 while weighing more? The IS UAC20 that forces LFE? Perhaps CUACs in general might need a buff but the inclusion of even worse IS UACs is certainly not the right reason for it.

add in the fact that the IS shots do all it's damage in one shell, where clans do the same damage over a few.. pinpoint/spread. I think we keep the jam chance and fire one shell.. then I'd be happy.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Grus, on 03 July 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

add in the fact that the IS shots do all it's damage in one shell, where clans do the same damage over a few.. pinpoint/spread. I think we keep the jam chance and fire one shell.. then I'd be happy.

On the PTS the IS UAC10 fires 2 shells and the UAC20 fires 3, its less shots than the clan ones but still not fully frontloaded.

If they were firing just one shell they'd be far superior hands down.

[Brain Cancer]

For that matter, RAC's have even more shell count and spread to boot.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Brain Cancer, on 03 July 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

For that matter, RAC's have even more shell count and spread to boot.

They are much more spread but have much higher DPS for their weight, forcing them to be a DPS weapon only rather than normal AC and UAC's frontloading ability.

Makes them decent for holding a line, terrible at poking one.

IS UAC5 gets about 6 DPS if it never jams while IS RAC5 at one ton and one slot more gets 10.8 DPS if it never jams, and also has the safe period in which you can fire it with no jams 100% of the time, at which point it gets to a point in which it may jam just like the UAC5, though at a seemingly lower rate.

RACs could be very useful if the user has great aim and focuses on heavies and assaults, but against light mechs up close they fall way behind massed UACs.

[Garageguy]

El Bandito... we get it. you don't like Clan tech.... clan tech is OP.. blaa blaa blaa. It is apparent to everyone what side you butter your bread. Why can't there be a discussion?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 02 July 2017 - 10:07 PM, said:

I bet IS UAC10/20 are gonna be saddled with just as heavy GH as Clan ones. PGI had left tons of loopholes in the PTS so far, and they will close them soon. So hold your horses. Not to mention LFE is still 100% worse than CXL.

Maybe they will be, maybe they won't, maybe they'll get in game without penalties then be nerfed afterwards, I'm just going off the current stats.

LFE doesn't have penalties on side torso loss that I know of, so you can deadside with one of those without any problem, unlike the CXL, which will benefit quite a few builds. LFE is better at tanking but, in usual IS fashion, heavier. Its further balanced out by the IS side's structure/armor quirks allowing the user to take further advantage of the ability to fully deadside and tank, which basically every bit of IS tech encourages.

IS vs Clan balance is rather close in the live server, as we saw from Tuk3, IS was buffed more with the skill tree than Clans due to the higher defensive quirks leading to better gains from survival nodes, further reducing the small imbalance, and now LFE engines will allow users who were sticking with STD engines to swap them out for more weight. Light FF armor, while worse than Clan FF armor, does still provide a bit of extra weight to those who happen to have just 7 left over slots, which is just another small bonus to many builds. IS is also getting the majority of new tech including MRMs, rocket launchers, SNPPCs, ERML, UAC10/UAC20, RAC5, and stealth armor, just to name the game changers.

I think you'll soon find little to complain about as an IS player. My unit's already just set on auto renew on the IS contract, there is very little reason to stick to Clans. I see either IS nerfs or Clan buffs coming in August, or at least lots of stomping done by IS.

[nehebkau]

Garageguy, on 03 July 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

El Bandito... we get it. you don't like Clan tech.... clan tech is OP.. blaa blaa blaa. It is apparent to everyone what side you butter your bread. Why can't there be a discussion?

...because most clanners only acknowledge their weapon drawbacks and refuse to acknowledge or discount the benefits of the weapons they have combined with clan xl engines and omnimechs plus they only see the benefits of the IS weapons and discount all of the huge drawbacks?

Edited by nehebkau, 03 July 2017 - 12:24 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Dakota1000, on 03 July 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

LFE doesn't have penalties on side torso loss that I know of

I can confirm that it does have penalties, 100%. You slow down and take a hit to the heat, just like with cXL. Got into a match on Canyon, couldn't finish off a sticked McGral18 before his mentally deficient team mates finally decided I was the only one left with guns (3x cERML) all because my heat was impacted. I was also moving slow as molasses on what was otherwise a 75.5 kph 'Mech. My MAC-5D, which runs 81.3 kph, drops to 64.8 kph.

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IS is also getting the majority of new tech including MRMs, rocket launchers, SNPPCs, ERML, UAC10/UAC20, RAC5, and stealth armor, just to name the game changers.

Out of all of that, only the ERML and UAC/10 might be game changers for the IS. The UAC/10 got its range cut from the 540 m it should be down to 450 meters so the AC/10 doesn't look as unattractive as it actually is and the ERML has a god-awful damage-to-heat ratio, worse than the cERML, that really savages builds actually fighting at its vanilla range and not its +20% quirked range.

UAC/20 also got cut to 270 meters from 300, though I don't know why since the AC/20 was not in danger of being obsoleted by the UAC/20. Very different guns serving different roles.

RAC/5 are garbage on PTS, c'mon now.

SNPPCs are too hot and slow for their range.

Stealth Armor is a gimmick with too many deficiencies to make it worthwhile for anything but the lulz.

[P10k56]

New techs are not in final state.
There is still balancing in run but for some reason clan side is loud about how unblanced Is UACs are.

[Brain Cancer]

You'd think that LFEs, which give half the benefit of a CXL, might also have half the penalty for a ST loss.

But a lot of this on PTS seems to have started as copypasted coding, like the old 180m deadzone on ATMs coming from IS LRM coding. It can and should be fixed.

[P10k56]

Or MRMs glorious range of 450.
Truly medium range.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 July 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

I can confirm that it does have penalties, 100%. You slow down and take a hit to the heat, just like with cXL. Got into a match on Canyon, couldn't finish off a sticked McGral18 before his mentally deficient team mates finally decided I was the only one left with guns (3x cERML) all because my heat was impacted. I was also moving slow as molasses on what was otherwise a 75.5 kph 'Mech. My MAC-5D, which runs 81.3 kph, drops to 64.8 kph.



Out of all of that, only the ERML and UAC/10 might be game changers for the IS. The UAC/10 got its range cut from the 540 m it should be down to 450 meters so the AC/10 doesn't look as unattractive as it actually is and the ERML has a god-awful damage-to-heat ratio, worse than the cERML, that really savages builds actually fighting at its vanilla range and not its +20% quirked range.

UAC/20 also got cut to 270 meters from 300, though I don't know why since the AC/20 was not in danger of being obsoleted by the UAC/20. Very different guns serving different roles.

RAC/5 are garbage on PTS, c'mon now.

SNPPCs are too hot and slow for their range.

Stealth Armor is a gimmick with too many deficiencies to make it worthwhile for anything but the lulz.

Wish PGI would actually state the effects on different weapons, LFE definitely shouldn't have penalties.

I disagree about your opinions on the weapons and stealth armor though. ERML and UAC10s were the least attractive options out of the ones I named in my opinion.

Rocket launchers allow IS mechs to add in what is basically a one time "i win" button on any mech with some spare missile hardpoints. You get ambushed by a brawler in your laser boat? Just slap him with a 105 damage alpha from a trio of RL20s, and finish off his structure with your laser burst. In FP matches where its a battle of who can take out the most enemy mechs first rocket launchers could be fitted onto IS mechs to quickly deplete the Clan wave. I mean, each mech gets the ability to basically call in what would previously have been a 3 man focus fire alpha at any time. Warhammer 7S would be perfect for it, bringing 3 LPL, 3 ERML, and 3 RL20s.

MRMs provide a missile option worth taking on the IS mechs that would have just a single stray missile hardpoint. 40 damage at mid range isn't much to scoff at, especially from a single weapon.

SNPPCs offer a frontloaded damage alternative to the LPL at a ton less, but with 100m less max range and a bit more heat, it could be a decent alternative, especially if its heat gets cut down before the PTS ends.

UAC20, even with the same range as an AC20 still has the ability to push out double the damage at once, 40 damage, as I said before, isn't much to scoff at when its also backed up by other weapons.

Stealth armor, looks like it may be much more than a gimmick. You become completely untargetable, except maybe when hit by TAG, haven't tested that yet, which helps a lot with sneaking up on the enemy, or poking the enemy with your alpha without taking return fire, or just becoming completely immune to LRM boats without the need to stick to cover, allowing for you to get to better positions or move up without taking heavy rain. At extreme range maps in FP where the meta is trading ERLL back and fourth having stealth armor would make you incredibly hard to pick out at optimal ranges. I've learned from my experiences mastering the Hellbringers and Shadow Cats before the skill tree ECM nerf that having a bit of stealth really does let you get away with a lot of free trades that you normally wouldn't get.

[Khobai]

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There is still balancing in run but for some reason clan side is loud about how unblanced Is UACs are.

I think its more the fact that clan UACs are terrible

clan UACs (particularly the CUAC20) are virtually unusable against moving targets because its hard to keep all the bursts on target

where its much easier with the IS UACs because they have less bursts

Edited by Khobai, 03 July 2017 - 01:05 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Snubbies are also really fun weapons for single-CT energy hardpoint lights like the Locust or Spider. Respectable fire rate and it can get off a decent number of shots before having to go into a shoot-cool-shoot cycle.

[Garageguy]

nehebkau, on 03 July 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

...because most clanners only acknowledge their weapon drawbacks and refuse to acknowledge or discount the benefits of the weapons they have combined with clan xl engines and omnimechs plus they only see the benefits of the IS weapons and discount all of the huge drawbacks?

I play mostly clan mechs, but i do play a bunch of IS mechs. I call it easy mode when i play in an IS mech because the reduced face time (burn times) and reduced heat. I prefer clan because I like the mechs better... but IS seems to dump all their problems on Clanners... we didn't make this game, and we are not the loudest voice. quit dumping on Clanners... dump on PGI

[Khobai]

Quote

.because most clanners only acknowledge their weapon drawbacks and refuse to acknowledge or discount the benefits

the benefits arnt benefits if the drawbacks are so bad the weapon is unusable.

that is the exact situation a lot of clan weapons like the CUAC20 are in. great it weighs less, but its still useless, so the fact it weighs less has zero bearing.

Edited by Khobai, 03 July 2017 - 01:07 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Dakota1000, on 03 July 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

Wish PGI would actually state the effects on different weapons, LFE definitely shouldn't have penalties.

I disagree about your opinions on the weapons and stealth armor though. ERML and UAC10s were the least attractive options out of the ones I named in my opinion.

Rocket launchers allow IS mechs to add in what is basically a one time "i win" button on any mech with some spare missile hardpoints. You get ambushed by a brawler in your laser boat? Just slap him with a 105 damage alpha from a trio of RL20s, and finish off his structure with your laser burst. In FP matches where its a battle of who can take out the most enemy mechs first rocket launchers could be fitted onto IS mechs to quickly deplete the Clan wave. I mean, each mech gets the ability to basically call in what would previously have been a 3 man focus fire alpha at any time. Warhammer 7S would be perfect for it, bringing 3 LPL, 3 ERML, and 3 RL20s.

MRMs provide a missile option worth taking on the IS mechs that would have just a single stray missile hardpoint. 40 damage at mid range isn't much to scoff at, especially from a single weapon.

SNPPCs offer a frontloaded damage alternative to the LPL at a ton less, but with 100m less max range and a bit more heat, it could be a decent alternative, especially if its heat gets cut down before the PTS ends.

UAC20, even with the same range as an AC20 still has the ability to push out double the damage at once, 40 damage, as I said before, isn't much to scoff at when its also backed up by other weapons.

Stealth armor, looks like it may be much more than a gimmick. You become completely untargetable, except maybe when hit by TAG, haven't tested that yet, which helps a lot with sneaking up on the enemy, or poking the enemy with your alpha without taking return fire, or just becoming completely immune to LRM boats without the need to stick to cover, allowing for you to get to better positions or move up without taking heavy rain. At extreme range maps in FP where the meta is trading ERLL back and fourth having stealth armor would make you incredibly hard to pick out at optimal ranges. I've learned from my experiences mastering the Hellbringers and Shadow Cats before the skill tree ECM nerf that having a bit of stealth really does let you get away with a lot of free trades that you normally wouldn't get.

Rockets are OP, and IMHO they should never have been added into the game, at least not as one-shot weapons. I can think of a zillion alternatives to their current implementation that would make them useful instead of gimmicky or broken.

MRMs are essentially missile lasers. Use with lasers. At best, it allows the IS to boost laser vomit outputs to similar levels as Clans, but it's only really effective in that capacity against larger targets, it soaks up tonnage and it can be countered by AMS. I've got a 69-alpha Marauder that isn't too shabby with a pair of MRM20, but that's XL and it looks like about 20% of the MRM damage goes everywhere but the target location at >300 m.

SNPPC is flatly inferior to the LPL; the LPL was already front-loaded enough and it offers better range, better heat, and shorter cool-down, all of of which are most definitely worth the extra ton. Even just a cool-down buff on the SN-PPC would make the choice less clear-cut, but right now the only 'Mechs where the SN-PPC is properly good are the BoomHammer and the SHD-2K (which now supersedes the SHD-2D2 for brawl), otherwise it mucks up the heat profile.

UAC/20 doesn't have any capability the cUAC/20 doesn't save for the uncertain state of ghost heat. It's decent, but like MRMs it's really just a sort of side-grade to laser vomit that boosts it a little bit at the expense of only really being great against bigs. So I can now match what my 4x cMPL + 1x cUAC/20 HBR can do using a +10 tons Marauder with 5x ERML + 1x UAC/10...neat, but nothing impressive. Would definitely not hurt anything to give it the 300 meters it is due.

Stealth Armor comes at the penalty of not being able to lock or dissipate heat. It costs you any savings you might have needed from Ferro. It locks slots in specific regions that can interfere with what would have otherwise been effective builds. It is far and away better to just spend the nodes on ECM and run ECM-only, especially if what you are trying to do is get in free trades at range where the locks are hard to get in the first place. Where Stealth Armor is most effective is on a cold, dark map like HPG where you can't see anything in the first place and the heat gain is lowered, but if you are playing to win you've probably cranked your gamma up (like a ******) and then the effect is nil. The ECM shield will alert you of proximity anyway. Basically, positioning is OP.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 03 July 2017 - 01:28 PM.