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A Simple Solution To Ppfld Meta

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#41 Saint Scarlett Johan

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:27 PM

View PostFupDup, on 02 July 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

The Law of Unintended Consequences™ is a part of the daily reality of MWO's meta.

Although really, the IS MPL actually got buffed recently.


I couldn't tell. When I finally started playing again I dropped in an old Dragonslayer build a few times in solo queue and got called a poptarting meta-***** by friendly and enemy alike. Even the COD crowd isn't as idiotic as this one.

#42 FupDup

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:38 PM

View PostSaint Scarlett Johan, on 02 July 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

I couldn't tell. When I finally started playing again I dropped in an old Dragonslayer build a few times in solo queue and got called a poptarting meta-***** by friendly and enemy alike. Even the COD crowd isn't as idiotic as this one.

The concepts of using the mechlab and using competent mech design principles are lost on many people, and even shunned as heretical. It's a big part of why the Battletech IP is so annoying to work with. I swear the BT community is the worst of any IP...

#43 Tarogato

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:50 PM

Do people not realise that PPFLD is not the meta anymore? When the skill tree came in, PPFLD got vastly overshadowed by brawling and laservomit. It's really only viable in a secondary/support role, it doesn't actually dictate the meta anymore.

#44 Saint Scarlett Johan

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:52 PM

View PostFupDup, on 02 July 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

The concepts of using the mechlab and using competent mech design principles are lost on many people, and even shunned as heretical. It's a big part of why the Battletech IP is so annoying to work with. I swear the BT community is the worst of any IP...


I've been gone a year, any other community I'd expect it to change some. The BT/MW community is about as steadfast as the cycle of life and death itself.

View PostTarogato, on 02 July 2017 - 09:50 PM, said:

Do people not realise that PPFLD is not the meta anymore? When the skill tree came in, PPFLD got vastly overshadowed by brawling and laservomit. It's really only viable in a secondary/support role, it doesn't actually dictate the meta anymore.


Shhhh.... don't tell them that. They need their boogeyman.

#45 FupDup

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:53 PM

View PostSaint Scarlett Johan, on 02 July 2017 - 09:52 PM, said:

I've been gone a year, any other community I'd expect it to change some. The BT/MW community is about as steadfast as the cycle of life and death itself.

The only constants in life are taxes, death, and neckbeards.

#46 Wildstreak

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 04:05 AM

View PostKoniving, on 02 July 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

True.

The simple solution being to remove the ghost heat altogether and directly address the issues by making their firing rates and stats to be significantly less homogeneous.

The simpler solution is to cut the thresholds, make the ACs non-FLD, and keep the firing rate of Gauss weapons very low.

Better but less simple, is to redo it from the ground up using lessons from all the mistakes made.

Actually the Simple I referred to would have been give Lasers and ACs a Cone of Fire.
Would have given a purpose to the old Pinpoint Efficiency, narrowing the cone.

View PostSaint Scarlett Johan, on 02 July 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

If you ******** idiots would quit calling for the nerfing of everything like cSPL/isMPL brawling, SRM cruisers, or AC gun boats then the jumptart PPFLD boogeyman would go away.

If ******* fools like you did not show up making blanket and false accusations, there would be better discussion.

#47 Koniving

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 04:24 AM

View PostWildstreak, on 03 July 2017 - 04:05 AM, said:

Actually the Simple I referred to would have been give Lasers and ACs a Cone of Fire.
Would have given a purpose to the old Pinpoint Efficiency, narrowing the cone.

Got a slight, but also simple thing that can produce a similar effect without any flak.

Notice how mechs bounce and stuff when they move? Fire a laser (or in PTS, an RAC) while moving in first person, and then in third person (both during movement). Preferably at an area of the ground where you can see their impact marks.

Notice it is PERFECTLY straight for the laser and semi-straight for the RAC in first person?
Now notice it is jagged for the laser and kinda out there for the RAC in third person?

It is still Perfect pinpoint, but now MOVING affects your aim in mostly a similar way to World of Tanks or War Thunder or Armored Warfare.
Now we put that into first person to make it fair.

#48 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 04:30 AM

Why stop there? ... Why allow shooting LPLs at the same time as MLs? ... SPLs at the same time as SRMs? ... Why allow to shoot more than one weapon at the same time? ... Why allow to take more than one weapon on a mech, etc.?

Or perhaps it is time to stop catering to bads by giving them safezones like 'ghost heat' and alike?

#49 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 05:06 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 03 July 2017 - 04:30 AM, said:

Why stop there? ... Why allow shooting LPLs at the same time as MLs? ... SPLs at the same time as SRMs? ... Why allow to shoot more than one weapon at the same time? ... Why allow to take more than one weapon on a mech, etc.?

Or perhaps it is time to stop catering to bads by giving them safezones like 'ghost heat' and alike?

Safezones like "look, combine these weapons together, they are almost identical in weapon characteristics, no need to manage different weapons and firing them in different groups to manage their different cooldowns and lead distances."

#50 Dr Hobo

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 09:01 AM

See,there's multiple problems right now.

Heatsinks don't work like they should,ghost heat is *still* a thing. Mechs don't feel like mechs anymore,and they havent since CBT. Convergence is still a problem. PPFLD is still a major issue.

Basically,if a mech can't do PPFLD it's DOA. It has no use(see Viper,Phawk etc). You dont' see them. Instead you'll see it for a week before it gets discarded and tossed aside.

So how do we fix it?

We need heat penalties. We need damage penalties. If you are constantly running hot,than your mech should start having problems. Convergence should start widening,targeting and info gathering should be slower. The mech itself should slow down in movement,from the legs to the arms.

And remove shared C3,we should have command mechs have a role(looking at you Crab and Cyclops) and C3 should be optional gear you can install.

Then you can start balancing things since everyone doesn't know where to dump their 100 pt alpha strike every 15 seconds.

#51 PurplePuke

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 09:17 AM

PPFLD Meta doesn't need a solution.

There's a lot of raving about it in the forums, but I don't see much of it in game. It's no more prevalent than any other playstyle.

#52 Dr Hobo

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 09:29 AM

View PostPurplePuke, on 03 July 2017 - 09:17 AM, said:

PPFLD Meta doesn't need a solution.

There's a lot of raving about it in the forums, but I don't see much of it in game. It's no more prevalent than any other playstyle.

View PostPurplePuke, on 03 July 2017 - 09:17 AM, said:

PPFLD Meta doesn't need a solution.

There's a lot of raving about it in the forums, but I don't see much of it in game. It's no more prevalent than any other playstyle.


I dunno. I mean,you tend to see a lot of the same 3 basic fits.

Dakka(that's not very effective anymore) laser puke and gauss erppc builds.

I rarely see big brawls anymore.

#53 LowSubmarino

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 09:37 AM

Gauss ppc combos are not the problem.

Never has been.

Ppl basically want potent weapons on the one hand but also want to be able to just wander about taking hit after hit. They want to be able to play while chatting to mommy on the phone, half drunk, half asleep.

What kills ppl isnt gauss and or ppc. Its the bad playstyle of most ppl I see in pug games.

Granted, I could play group cue and numeours ppl invited me to play in a team etc. which naturally happens when somebody played for such a long time.

I dont like that though as the constant talking distracts me. I play differently when theres always somebody talking. I cant blend it out very effectively. Im best when I dont use my brain but play by instinkt, relying on intrinsic knowledge and experience, rather than specifically focusing.

I might play in a team that minimizes communication to one guy or girl calling the shots as to where the lances move. The general strat and also spontaneous maneuvers or tactics. But thsi constant talking simply distracts me. Its fun and I actually talk a lot when theres cool ppl.

But it hampers my ingame skills.

That said, I do realize that pug games are kinda low skill games. No matter if tier 1 or 10.

That is the problem though.

Puggers are insanely vulnerable to basically any weapon because they mostly completly ignore terrain and mostly blindly nascar.

Even in tier one I see 1 - 4 ppl silhouetting eg on frozen city, tourmaline, hpg and many other maps.

If you can be reasonable sure that half the enemy team or the entire enemy team is right ahead of that ridge or hill, then silhouetting will get you killed or crippled in nanoseconds.

The majority of players I see in pug games dont understand that concept. Allow almost all mechs of the other team to unload on you and you are done for.

If you base your criticism concerning gauss and or ppc alphas on games you experience as a pugger, than you do what most other ppl did in the past in mwo. They basically complain about not really understanding more basic or advanced combat dynamics. Movement, terrain, silhouetting, how to play vs a sniper heavy or lrm heavy or brawl heavy team.

The average pug team (lets say somebody is calling the shots even like great general Kendrick haha....love the guy, so funny, but thats off topic) meets and greets the enemy. Not much intel, no real scouting, no taking into account where you are and which terrain is best suited vs the mechs and weapons ppl use.

The average pug team doesnt really care about all that. And thats understandable. Most ppl just wanne jump in and play a few rounds.

Mwo is much more complex though.

Uavs cripple pug teams for instance. one solidly placed uav, specially when theres no real cover or your heavies and assaults are too far away from cover, is more dangerous than 5 kodiak 3s with dakka power materializing 300 meters right above your teams heads.

Ppl dont unerstand that though.

Not even in tier one.

Take all heavy to medium or light mechs that are heavily build around firepower, neglecting survival for speed, agility and heat and firepower. Killing well placed uav will most definitely save at the very least one whole mech that would have outright died or would have been crippled into uselesness.

And yet most ppl ignore uavs.

A well placed uav should even stop you from taking that last half alpha shot to take out a kodiak 3 that still has full weapons.

Killing a well placed uav is way more important.

Most ppl dont unerstand that though.

I play double ppc builds are double gauss/ppc build in the night gyr quite a lot.

They are lethal vs average pug teams.

But are insanely vulnerable vs a team that uses terrain, ecm, intel and simply sends a few skirmishers your way. Or a locust that puts uav over yur head and lrm skirmishers or light brawlers target you and take out your very vulnerable gauss rifles.

Or a team charges your team and you are virtually useless.

Instead I see guys with insanely long face time weapons (eg. clan erLLs) peek at me over and over and I jump snipe and unload alpha after alpha after alpha.

A good player would realize after only one such bad trade that this is not a good idea and immediatly change tactics.

Most ppl dont do that though.

You wanne nerf sniping into the ground.

Using a charge up or limit gauss and ppc to 2 at a time hasnt reduced the effectiveness even one nanometer.

Not even one nanometer.

They are as lethal as before if used as they were intended to be used. As long range suppression weapons. Sniper weapons.

Mechs with high hardpoints additionaly aided by jjs, will always remain deadly in those specific scenarios.

If you go into brawling range vs a 100 % brawling build of a shitload of srms and maybe ac20 or lbx10 - 20 then you will get badly dmged or killed if you wander about in the vicinty of such builds and firepower.

Crying about gauss builds is basically saying 'I dont wanne get dmged or killed vs brawling weapons. Its unfair. They do so much dmg'.

Its all the same.

The only way to reduce the dmg such weapons pose is to completly take them out cause by nature they are pretty damn effective when it comes to range and dishing out instadamage.

On the other hand they are insanely weak vs close range builds or faster, agile targest that swarm around you.

my aim is pretty good. Very good id say. I have pretty nasty reflexes.

Still, good light pilots are incredibly hard to hit with such weapons.

Now, after survival tree you can easily get killed by an srm commando that is better than an average pug player.

Ppl only focus on what such builds can do when played in the scenarios where they shine.

They never see the whole picture.

Taking sniper weapons out and im done with the game.

Brawling is boring for me.

No challenge. Too easy.

A real sniper warfare gets my blood pumping.

Ppl even whine about lrms hahaha. Lrms are by far the weakest weapon in the entire game. And yet even there ppl complain.

Which is pathetic. Just pathetic.

#54 Y E O N N E

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 09:50 AM

View PostTarogato, on 02 July 2017 - 09:50 PM, said:

Do people not realise that PPFLD is not the meta anymore? When the skill tree came in, PPFLD got vastly overshadowed by brawling and laservomit. It's really only viable in a secondary/support role, it doesn't actually dictate the meta anymore.


Called it. Thanks, laser duration and durability nodes!

#55 Tarogato

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 10:07 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 03 July 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

Called it. Thanks, laser duration and durability nodes!


Nah, actually it was the super-double-dual-coolshots that did most of the damage. Durability also hurt the balance, but it's really the consumables that dictate the meta right now.

#56 Y E O N N E

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 10:53 AM

View PostTarogato, on 03 July 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

Nah, actually it was the super-double-dual-coolshots that did most of the damage. Durability also hurt the balance, but it's really the consumables that dictate the meta right now.


I mean, it was really bad before they nerfed the cERML, too. 65.8 DPS over the burn from 450 meters using the 2+6 loadout. Then double Coolshot because what is heat?

GGclose.

#57 Grus

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 11:01 AM

View PostDGTLDaemon, on 02 July 2017 - 04:53 AM, said:

So, PPFLD builds based on the Gauss+ERPPC combo are appparently causing enough concern to PGI so that they have repeatedly nerfed a number of chassis capable of supporting such builds. But instead of targeting mechs that can also run a number of other, non-OP builds, I propose targeting the offending loadout. The game already has a hard-coded limit of 2 Gauss rifles that can be fired at a time, and it was implemented for that very reason: to prevent obsene PPFLD alphas at long range. Gauss+ERPPC builds circumvent this limit by combining two different PPFLD weapon systems. So, why not apply the limit to both weapons? Make it simple: if you fire any number of Gauss rifles, you have to wait 0.5 seconds before you fire any number of ERPPCs, and vice versa. This way, builds like 2xGauss+2xERPPC will remain viable, but they will have to stagger their shots. And PGI can then base their balancing decisions on the chassis' overall performance rather than a single offending loadout which allows the mech to rise above the power curve. Any thoughts, gentlemen?
so take away the only advantage clan has right now... drop weight is still lower for no other reason than population. Our gun fire hotter. Components have less hp.. I don't need to go on.

#58 Brain Cancer

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 11:09 AM

Quote

Do people not realise that PPFLD is not the meta anymore? When the skill tree came in, PPFLD got vastly overshadowed by brawling and laservomit. It's really only viable in a secondary/support role, it doesn't actually dictate the meta anymore.


Given, the meta is attempting to reduce laser burn time to as close to PPFLD as possible, because spread is the enemy and damage over time it's ally. It's always going to be about putting as much damage into one location as fast as possible.

#59 Monkey Lover

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 11:12 AM

Posted Image




easy fix for most issues

#60 Khobai

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 12:37 PM

Quote

Gauss ppc combos are not the problem.


absolutely wrong.

gauss has always been a problem.

specifically because gauss violates one of the fundamental rules of the game which is that better weapons generate more heat.

gauss doing high pinpoint damage at long range for practically no heat is a violation of core principles of the game. which is why gauss was outright broken in tabletop and in MWO its proven to be one of the hardest weapons for PGI to balance. And that problem is further compounded by its near perfect affinity with PPCs.

Edited by Khobai, 03 July 2017 - 12:40 PM.






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