155 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 02 July 2017 - 08:51 AM, said:

not really, most high Alpha Bursts (6ML+2LPL) would have to be split up to work,
IS-6ML+2LPL= 50Damage Alpha(37.5Energy) could be fired as 6ML Wait 0.5sec(10energy regen) then 2LPL,
C-6ML+2LPL= 59Damage Alpha(49.5Energy) could be fired as 5ML Wait 1sec(20energy regen) then 1ML+2LPL,

its not that you couldnt go over 30Damage, but Heat ramped up when past 30Damage,
10points of damage over was only about 5-10 extra heat, past 15 points though heat went up crazy,
i remember 40point alphas where possible and were used often but players still wanting that high alpha feel,
Alpha builds that were still used were (IS-6ML+2LPL(+7.5heat) & (C-5ML+2LPL(+18.5heat)

I shouldn't have to tell you this, because you were there in the same matches Sader was hosting.

It is precisely the requirement of splitting up the alpha which kills the alpha. If I have to split the alpha, I'm not doing as much damage at once. Because those builds also run hot even when split, my output is low as well as delayed. The result was targets waltzing out into the open and just tanking it to get close enough to use weapons with superior DPS while the high alpha builds were recoiling from heat. It didn't matter whether they stagger-fired or alpha-struck, they were either spitting the damage out too slowly because of the increased burn time or too slowly because of the heat penalty.

It was a push meta, a very hard one.

[Ruar]

I wasn't around for energy draw, but from reading Andi's explanation I think I can see why it was never implemented. Having a separate energy bar that is used before adding heat is complicated. Even if the bar is easy to read it still makes weapons management difficult.

When I first read about energy draw I assumed they would do something similar to what was in the Jade Falcon books. A Gauss rifle would require X amount of energy produced by the engine so once it was fired other high energy weapons wouldn't be able to immediately be used. There had to be time for the engine to produce enough energy to let the lasers shoot.

This type of system seems like a great way to help control the laser builds and prevent Gauss rifles from being too strong. I envisioned each mech having a capacitor number. I'm assuming bigger engine would equal bigger capacitor but not so much to be OP. So the capacitor could handle a certain amount of energy draw. Each weapon would have it's own energy number. Ballistic weapons would have a low energy draw since they would only be pulling power to cycle the ammunition belts and operate the firing mechanism. Missiles would have a slightly higher energy draw since they have more feeds to operate with the bigger missile packs having a higher draw. Lasers would have a significant energy draw and gauss/ppc would have the maximum energy pull.

They could even add in additional energy pull for boating weapons similar to ghost heat but with an easy to read result. The mechlab would have a capacitor meter and as you add more weapons you would see their effect. You would be able to put more weapons than you have energy to use if you wanted, but you would still be limited to how much the capacitor recharged before firing.

So an example fight would see a 65 ton mech with 75 capacitor. It has a two PPCs and a Gauss rifle. Those three weapons would draw 100 energy (30, 30, 40 respectively). Which means you couldn't actually fire all three together. You could fire any two with the third having to wait until the capacitor recharged. The capacitor charge would be a fixed rate and could possibly have skill nodes to enhance. The weapons would still have their own cooldown separate from the capacitor recharge.

Heat would be it's own measure still, but we wouldn't have to worry about ghost heat. Energy would be what limits boating while heat would be used to regulate damage over time.

Maybe it wouldn't work, but that's my thoughts on energy draw to help balance.

[davoodoo]

Ruar, on 02 July 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

I wasn't around for energy draw, but from reading Andi's explanation I think I can see why it was never implemented. Having a separate energy bar that is used before adding heat is complicated. Even if the bar is easy to read it still makes weapons management difficult.

He also didnt mention that it encouraged boating like nothing before that.

You are 60+ ton mech?? Why bother with mediums, lpl the king. Mediums are for those pesky lights which cant fit big energy.

Edited by davoodoo, 02 July 2017 - 09:33 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

I absolutely support bringing back Energy Draw, although a modified one that only affects energy weapons and Gauss Rifles, ballistics and missiles can keep ghost heat. With the introduction of the PPC and Gauss variants, as well as the Heavy lasers, GH begins falling apart, because you either make weapons like the Light PPC less effective if it shares GH with the others, or a PPC combination becomes too powerful if the variants are unlinked, ED completely combats this problems without affecting a weapon's effectiveness.

[Y E O N N E]

davoodoo, on 02 July 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

He also didnt mention that it encouraged boating like nothing before that.

Why bother with mediums, clpl the king.

IIRC, it was 6x cERLL (they got buffed for that PTS) on the KDK-5 or 8x cERML on the GAR. Actually, the penalty for 5x cERML fired together was so small that you could get away with 10x cERML on the GAR.

[davoodoo]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 July 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

IIRC, it was 6x cERLL (they got buffed for that PTS) on the KDK-5 or 8x cERML on the GAR. Actually, the penalty for 5x cERML fired together was so small that you could get away with 10x cERML on the GAR.

That was pretty late, initially it was ppc boating, later it all came back to lpl, then after lpl got nerfed on ptr ppl went with cerll. I still remember outrage about dual gauss, which was more efficient than anything else in that system...

Best thing was how locust could fit 6 mlas and hit 30 damage alpha.

Every mech was supposed to be brought down to lvl of 25 tons level 2 mech heat neutral alpha.

I wonder why idea was universally hated.

Edited by davoodoo, 02 July 2017 - 09:41 AM.

[Snowbluff]

davoodoo, on 02 July 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:

Best thing was how locust could fit 6 mlas and hit 30 damage alpha.

Every mech was supposed to be brought down to lvl of 25 tons level 2 mech heat neutral alpha.

I wonder why idea was universally hated.

Hold on a second, 6 MLAS Locust? They can do that now, but no one does it because of the regular, not ghost, heat. o.0
Even with the 15% heat buff to IS ML, I don't think it would actually be considered useful.

Also lights suck. They are literally dying out. Having limited effect on light was a bonus of ED.

Yeonne Greene, on 02 July 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

Not a useful niche when we're firing 30 + 30 damage laser volleys with a mere 1.5 second gap while you've got 35 points and then a nice, long 5 second gap by nature of the weapon.

Energy Draw kills alpha-striking gameplay entirely, and that is bad.

Well, you say that, but then you have people saying that alpha is bad, and that also sometimes the penalty wasn't very high at times.

Sounds more like a complaint with the numbers rather than the concept itself, which is solvable. Like I said, there could be room for a laser alpha style by buffing the ED on lasers. :l

Edited by Snowbluff, 02 July 2017 - 10:26 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 July 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

I shouldn't have to tell you this, because you were there in the same matches Sader was hosting.

It is precisely the requirement of splitting up the alpha which kills the alpha. If I have to split the alpha, I'm not doing as much damage at once. Because those builds also run hot even when split, my output is low as well as delayed. The result was targets waltzing out into the open and just tanking it to get close enough to use weapons with superior DPS while the high alpha builds were recoiling from heat. It didn't matter whether they stagger-fired or alpha-struck, they were either spitting the damage out too slowly because of the increased burn time or too slowly because of the heat penalty.

It was a push meta, a very hard one.

im not saying that Energy Draw was perfect, but it was a step in the right direction,
also we are basing Alpha gameplay on a confirmed loophole, this is the problem,

we should retest Energy Draw, if its too harsh on Alpha play then increase the max Alpha,
use the Max Alpha within the Energy Draw system to balance Alpha Play,
and you the energy regen in Energy Draw system to balance DPS Play,

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 02 July 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

im not saying that Energy Draw was perfect, but it was a step in the right direction,
also we are basing Alpha gameplay on a confirmed loophole, this is the problem,

Where is this confirmation?

[Y E O N N E]

Snowbluff, on 02 July 2017 - 10:21 AM, said:

Well, you say that, but then you have people saying that alpha is bad, and that also sometimes the penalty wasn't very high at times.

Sounds more like a complaint with the numbers rather than the concept itself, which is solvable. Like I said, there could be room for a laser alpha style by buffing the ED on lasers. :l

If you cap the alpha low, the Clans just build to the cap and then boat DHS while the IS struggle to bring enough DHS. You can change the heat on IS weapons or change the regen rate to compensate, but we still have lower strikes that are compelling more DPS-oriented play and there's nothing you can do about that. It is an indirect buff to heavier 'Mechs, which don't really need it, without an appreciable nerf to their effectiveness against smaller ones.

[davoodoo]

Snowbluff, on 02 July 2017 - 10:21 AM, said:

Hold on a second, 6 MLAS Locust? They can do that now, but no one does it because of the regular, not ghost, heat. o.0
Even with the 15% heat buff to IS ML, I don't think it would actually be considered useful.

Also lights suck. They are literally dying out. Having limited effect on light was a bonus of ED.

Yes they can do that.

But the problem is that you want 4 times heavier mechs to also have only that much firepower.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Snowbluff, on 02 July 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

Considering the issues with RACs and Light PPCs in the game, people have been wondering if we're better off with energy draw than Ghost Heat Penalties.

Ghost Heat wasn't made with Light PPCs in mind. Ghost Heat can't properly keep up with RAC fire rates (hell, even AC2) fire rates.

I understand that people had issues with a DPS game, and how it could favor the clans, but doesn't an Alpha centric game currently favor the clans?

I understand that PPFLD was relatively good. However, energy draw does allow the draw value to be changed, so duration weapons could be buffed by lowering their draw, just like spread weapons were.

Personally I had zero issues with the Power Draw system because I tend to cycle through my weapons in compact groups anyway. I do this because it tends to be more heat efficient and had zero issues making it to tier 1 doing this while avoiding that single click alpha style of play most people tend to favor.

So yeah I would love to see PD be considered again. I mean I think with the new tech it actually would work extremely well and would tremendously improve the game. Heck it would more skill to the game because people would actually have to learn how to set up weapon groups and learn the timing required to cycle through those groups efficiently to avoid hitting the Power Draw limit. It also would promote less boating. But hey what do I know, it is easier to play the one click alpha game and call yourself a skilled player after all.

[The6thMessenger]

Sure i guess. But not the **** show PGI made in the pts.

[SOL Ranger]

Yes but it needs serious rework, but at the moment even small improvements over the current system would be acceptable.

[Rusharn]

It think the capacitor draw idea where if you draw more energy than the engine can generate slows down the cool down. DPS weapons would have low draws where alpha style weapons would have higher draws.

[Bespoke Cheese Cake]

In reply to the thread title: No.

[davoodoo]

Youre tilting at windmills.

You cant reduce alpha cause this is the style in which you fight in battletech.
Battlemechs are advancements on tanks, you emerge into line of fire, fire everything you got hoping to destroy enemy before going back into cover.
Standing engagements arent the norm theyre last resort.

You wont ever remove alphas, youll swap the way theyre delivered or remove bigger mechs capable of bigger alphas.
Even 4 uac5 kgc or 4 uac10 kodiak didnt stand there soaking fire but only stayed firing until most of their guns jammed upon which they went back.

Dps weapons dont work and wont ever work because they break fundamental rules of engagement, the fact that ppl without any tactical expertise came to same conclusions just prove it right.

Edited by davoodoo, 02 July 2017 - 04:32 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Andi Nagasia, on 02 July 2017 - 08:51 AM, said:

Energy gen was 10 every Half a Sec, back to full Energy in 1.5seconds(30Energy)

a single RAC2 fires 32Shells @ 0.50Dam/Shell before the Jam bar is full, and it has a Chance to Jam(32x0.5=16Damage)
a single RAC5 fires 32Shells @ 1.25Dam/Shell before the Jam bar is full, and it has a Chance to Jam(32x0.5=40Damage)
(RAC burst is i think 2second) i cant remember if Energy regenerated wail firing but i guess if it did theirs no problem,

also if they put RACs with Laser, LBX & LRMs as spread weapons @75%,
then you could fire 2RAC5s(80x0.75=60) 2seonds Burst = 30(Starting Energy) +40(2seconds) = 70Energy,
so it would actually fully work for 2RAC5s and be easy to understand and calculate,


not really, most high Alpha Bursts (6ML+2LPL) would have to be split up to work,
IS-6ML+2LPL= 50Damage Alpha(37.5Energy) could be fired as 6ML Wait 0.5sec(10energy regen) then 2LPL,
C-6ML+2LPL= 59Damage Alpha(49.5Energy) could be fired as 5ML Wait 1sec(20energy regen) then 1ML+2LPL,

its not that you couldnt go over 30Damage, but Heat ramped up when past 30Damage,
10points of damage over was only about 5-10 extra heat, past 15 points though heat went up crazy,
i remember 40point alphas where possible and were used often but players still wanting that high alpha feel,
Alpha builds that were still used were (IS-6ML+2LPL(+7.5heat) & (C-5ML+2LPL(+18.5heat)


well people usually rage, no matter whats done,

That is true. I for one wanted ED to happen. But people were vehemently opposed to ED. With a vitriolic passion.

[Twinkleblade]

Reimplementing ED for energy weapons and gauss at least. GH for ballistics and missiles until we can come up with something else.

[Kaptain]

No. And might I add "Burn the Heretic!"


Even if energy draw was a good idea (and it isn't imo) PGI showed they are not competent to balance such a mechanic with every server chance after the first and second iteration.