155 replies to this topic

[BearFlag]

The problem with both GH and ED is that they're arbitrary systems imposed on another system (which possesses sufficient parameters to achieve the goal almost directly). I.E. They're unnecessary complexity.

[Twinkleblade]

In my opinion it was a good idea but they simply changed weapons energy here and there and not the actual ED values.
I would have liked to see 30energy/fast regen for xl and 36energy/slow regen for standard engines. Just something to test the actual ED values.

This one here is good

Edited by Twinkleblade, 02 July 2017 - 05:09 PM.

[davoodoo]

BearFlag, on 02 July 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

The problem with both GH and ED is that they're arbitrary systems imposed on another system (which possesses sufficient parameters to achieve the goal almost directly). I.E. They're unnecessary complexity.

On more than 1 system infact.

Crits, tonnage, armor and heat were all made to limit how much firepower can mech carry.

If you want to make 14 mlas atlas you can make it in tt, in fact itll look like that
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...718897167c49b26
just fill every slot with medium laser till tonnage maxes out.

Its heat neutral 70 dmg alpha using nothing but level 1 tech.
Its horribly bad build though as itll get torn to pieces before it can reach range to unleash those lasers.

So what if i put staggering amount of firepower on 3025 assault mech if 2 lights mechs with ppc can tear it down before it reaches them or even better unleash catapult with lurms upon it and watch it melt.

Edited by davoodoo, 02 July 2017 - 05:19 PM.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 02 July 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

On more than 1 system infact.

Crits, tonnage, armor and heat were all made to limit how much firepower can mech carry.

If you want to make 14 mlas atlas you can make it in tt, in fact itll look like that
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...718897167c49b26
just fill every slot with medium laser till tonnage maxes out.

Its heat neutral 70 dmg alpha using nothing but level 1 tech.
Its horribly bad build though as itll get torn to pieces before it can reach range to unleash those lasers.

So what if i put staggering amount of firepower on 3025 assault mech if 2 lights mechs with ppc can tear it down before it reaches them or even better unleash catapult with lurms upon it and watch it melt.

Problem with that is its a different game. 70 damage alpha in battletech is nice but it will spread all over the place or completly miss because of dice rolls. Battletech was all about the heavy hitters and hope for a headshot. AC20 or clanERPPC into the head would destroy the cockpit. Or my favourite: Atlas facepunch. 70 alpha in mwo is painful. Just the heat system with crits and more isnt enough. Thast why we have ghost heat which still needs to go.
Funny video as a bonus


And about battletech and its RNG

Edited by Twinkleblade, 02 July 2017 - 05:30 PM.

[davoodoo]

Yes because pgi for some bizarre reason decided that everything hitting exactly where you aim is great idea.

Look at csrm6. 12 dmg for 1.5 ton + 1 ton of ammo, no one batches an eye because more than half of it wont hit your ct.

and even in tt, if you fire 14 mediums at medium mech, maybe itll survive, but itll lose an arm or 2 and most if not all armor on everything else.
also ive used this example because it simply was not possible to fire 6 ppc without dhs without instant shutdown, youll need at least 16 dhs on top of 42 tons of weapon which would actually be possible on stalker only if you build it like that
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3747e783dfb5552
Which is still ******* on part of pgi, cause that would put heat at 93% not 63 like in that video.

Edited by davoodoo, 02 July 2017 - 05:43 PM.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 02 July 2017 - 05:29 PM, said:

Yes because pgi for some bizarre reason decided that everything hitting exactly where you aim is great idea.

Look at csrm6. 12 dmg for 1.5 ton + 1 ton of ammo, no one batches an eye because more than half of it wont hit your ct.

and even in tt, if you fire 14 mediums at medium mech, maybe itll survive, but itll lose an arm or 2 and most if not all armor on everything else.
also ive used this example because it simply was not possible to fire 6 ppc without dhs without instant shutdown, youll need at least 16 dhs on top of 42 tons of weapon.

Depends on position of your mechs. If you stand in open ground in TT like a dum dum (admitting here that is exactly what I did when I first played) you will die. Its all about to give the enemy a to hit modifer so bad that nothing will hit. Except for that lucky headshot (favourite moment was undamaged warhammer in cover running and long range. Died because of 2 cockpit hits from the first salvo fired at it, PPCs of course. I lost that game hard, still satly).

[davoodoo]

But then most kills in tt still werent from headshots.

I still remember hunchie running up to a blackjack back and blowing it with ac20 with followup laser.
**** was scary when you played bad.

Edited by davoodoo, 02 July 2017 - 05:49 PM.

[Twinkleblade]

Probably, I just remember headshots was long time ago. However point still stands dont compare mwo to battletech.
I do like heavy gauss shake though after firing. A mechanic like that for all weapons would be interesting or at least for ballistics.
Combine the refire penalty bar with reticule shake when bar is full, instead of GH.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 02 July 2017 - 06:11 PM.

[Chados]

I absolutely think the ED system would be a better way to go than current GH. Rotary ACs are trashed with the current system. It's ridiculous that you can shoot an R2 and an R5 on one firing group and crash from ghost heat, but two R5s are fine. Two R5s on different groups fired together, GH crashout instanter, but the same two fired off one group, works fine. This is a bug inherent in the GH system and it's been known for ages, there is a video showing it in conjunction with SRM2s. ED fixed the problem and the twitch crowd screamed it away because it interferes with alpha-gank play, penalizes single-weapon boating, and rewards mixed builds. And this was before the skill tree, which rewards laser-boating heavily. I'd like to see ED 2.0 PTS and give it another try.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 July 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

If you cap the alpha low, the Clans just build to the cap and then boat DHS while the IS struggle to bring enough DHS. You can change the heat on IS weapons or change the regen rate to compensate, but we still have lower strikes that are compelling more DPS-oriented play and there's nothing you can do about that. It is an indirect buff to heavier 'Mechs, which don't really need it, without an appreciable nerf to their effectiveness against smaller ones.

I really don't get it. Why would you only build to the alpha? Why not build to the alpha twice or three time and cycle through those your max alpha without ghost heat to keep up your DPS while the other alpha is on cool down. Ok I know we aren't talking alpha strikes at this point but I think you get the point. There is no reason not to have more firepower than you can alpha at one time. I mean I run 3 LPLs on several of my Clan mechs which if I tried to fire all three at the same time, results in ghost heat. Instead I fire a one-two punch half a second or so behind the other and avoid the ghost heat. I mean I might not be alpha'ing 36 damage with one click but it isn't uncommon that I can put both bursts into the CT of an enemy 1/2 second apart and accomplish the same thing.

This is why I don't understand why people are so against PD. It mean it is that hard to play this game when you have to actually push more than one button every time you want to fire?

[Y E O N N E]

Viktor Drake, on 02 July 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

I really don't get it. Why would you only build to the alpha? Why not build to the alpha twice or three time and cycle through those your max alpha without ghost heat to keep up your DPS while the other alpha is on cool down.

You can do that, too, but you're going to do it with under-tonned weapons. During the ED PTS, that was 5x5 cERML and 30 DHS on a Gargoyle or 3x3 cERLL (they were buffed to 1.2 seconds) on a Kodiak. There was nothing in the IS arsenal that could match that, the closest was a STK-4N with 20x DHS and 6x LL, and it was respectable, but it still didn't have the DPS the Clan 'Mechs did.

Quote

This is why I don't understand why people are so against PD. It mean it is that hard to play this game when you have to actually push more than one button every time you want to fire?

I don't play with one button. I always have multiple weapon groups and typically only do a single strike when I am sure I won't be at-risk for getting pushed and when I can actually expose all of the guns to fire. Otherwise, it's partial salvos to ensure there's always something in reserve. The issue is that even the partial salvos on the Clan laser vomit with Energy Draw were highly abusive. We misused the crap out of the cERML and the Clan's ability to eat that tiny penalty for going over the 30 limit with the massive numbers of heatsinks.

[J0anna]

No Energy Draw was horrible. PGI has ways around this problem (like remove those weapons from ghost heat). PGI opened this Pandora's box when they changed the heat scale, adding more convoluted systems isn't necessary. Besides didn't energy draw have the same type of time limit? Weapons had to be fired after the energy draw bar had gone down or they added to it. A single RAC would never work under that system, it would just fill the bar and overheat you....

[Widowmaker1981]

Snowbluff, on 02 July 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

Considering the issues with RACs and Light PPCs in the game, people have been wondering if we're better off with energy draw than Ghost Heat Penalties.

Ghost Heat wasn't made with Light PPCs in mind. Ghost Heat can't properly keep up with RAC fire rates (hell, even AC2) fire rates.

I understand that people had issues with a DPS game, and how it could favor the clans, but doesn't an Alpha centric game currently favor the clans?

I understand that PPFLD was relatively good. However, energy draw does allow the draw value to be changed, so duration weapons could be buffed by lowering their draw, just like spread weapons were.

Energy draw would be an improvement for ghost heat if, and only if, it was segregated by weapon class. I.e. not linking LRMs with lasers and autocannons and SRMs. In its previous form it just destroyed any point in making mixed builds, because the only point in doing that now is to avoid ghost heat penalties.

I.e. SRM energy draw group, prevents you firing (or penalises) more than X damage in SRMs at once, PPC group prevents more than Y damage in PPCs at once, but there is no penalty for adding a PPC to a max size group of SRMs.

That way it would basically be a 1:1 replacement for ghost heat, but without the odd behaviour caused by different sized weapons linked together, without the 'forced' builds like 2xC-LPL + 2-6ERML, and without the bugs in rapid fire weapons.

edit: It would also have to be specifically designed to NOT limit damage output.. because the only point in the biggest mechs is having the biggest damage output, and therefore if you limit damage output, you invalidate mechs bigger than the smallest required to achieve whatever the limit is.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 03 July 2017 - 04:54 AM.

[davoodoo]

But then it would be impossible track using current ui.

And even with custom ui akin to wow addons it would be extremely hard forcing you to deal with it in mechlab by preparing build using different kind of weapons without exceeding energy cap in alpha which would penalise mechs without varied hardpoints like black knight.

Edited by davoodoo, 03 July 2017 - 04:51 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

davoodoo, on 03 July 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

But then it would be impossible track using current ui.

And even with custom ui akin to wow addons it would be extremely hard forcing you to deal with it in mechlab by preparing build using different kind of weapons without exceeding energy cap in alpha which would penalise mechs without varied hardpoints like black knight.

Yeah, it would.

Which is why i wouldnt bother, and would just simply remove ghost heat from the RACs. Just deal with the fact that mixing LPPCs with bigger PPCs is a bad idea and dont do it.

[Rusharn]

All they need to do is instead of having the current double heat sinks double your heat capacity they only double your heat dissipation.

[Gas Guzzler]

Hell no. Energy draw is dead and gone. There is no way they are going to risk another exodus following the skill tree. Not to mention, there is no need for it.

[Snowbluff]

Kaptain, on 02 July 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

Even if energy draw was a good idea (and it isn't imo) PGI showed they are not competent to balance such a mechanic with every server chance after the first and second iteration.

No offense, but if your argument is "PGI is incompetent," when the reason for a change is literally a broken system that PGI can't fixed, and the solution is to go to one that can at least function, you've missed the point.

We're moving up a level of competence, from a system that literally is broken, to one that at least works.

Edited by Snowbluff, 03 July 2017 - 11:58 AM.

[MadRover]

Just no. Wasn't around but by my understanding of the energy system, it's just wrong. Completely wrong. And if it won't solve the problem with RACs. This is a coding issue that if it's been around for ages it will never get fixed.

[Twinkleblade]

The reason ED turned out like it was is because of the linking of all weapons to it. Just linking energy and gauss to the ED system and keeping GH for ballistics and missiles (for now) is a good solution for the current mess.