155 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

Twinkleblade, on 03 July 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

The reason ED turned out like it was is because of the linking of all weapons to it. Just linking energy and gauss to the ED system and keeping GH for ballistics and missiles (for now) is a good solution for the current mess.

Like i said already.

Sure it wont be much hassle for mechs like atlas which have all 3 kinds of hardpoint, but what about black knight which got nothing but energy?? Why wouldnt i run warhammer(other than 6d) with limited ballistics instead?

You just made mechs like grasshopper and black night inherently inferior.

Edited by davoodoo, 03 July 2017 - 04:25 PM.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 03 July 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Like i said already.

Sure it wont be much hassle for mechs like atlas which have all 3 kinds of hardpoint, but what about black knight which got nothing but energy?? Why wouldnt i run warhammer(other than 6d) with limited ballistics instead?

You just made mechs like grasshopper and black night inherently inferior.

Depends on the ED values. Before everything went south, ED looked promising. With unlinking the 3 different systems you have much more options.

Example: We can have a value of ED for 35 and up to 40 a slight heat penalty. After that heat increases greatly.
Like if MLAS are 5 ED and LPULSE 10, thats 7-8 MLAS if you want to or 4 MLAS + 2 LPULSE with a slight penalty, 6 MLAS+ 2 LPULSE if you plan on controlling your fire. Nova might become better too because GH screwed it over hard, lower damage on SPULSE same GH values, with ED it would balance itself automatically.
ED system for energy weapons can work if properly done.
Not to mention we can control repeated alphas with how fast ED will regen over time. Another interesting mechanic would be to have different regen values for the XL, LFE and standard engine. Slower for XL, fastest on standard.

What I would like to see is if you heavily overdraw you would damage the engine lowering all ED values. 10%lower cap and regen, stacks up to 3 times.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 03 July 2017 - 04:56 PM.

[davoodoo]

Twinkleblade, on 03 July 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Example: We can have a value of ED for 35 and up to 40 a slight heat penalty. After that it increases greatly.
Give MLAS 5 ED and ERMLAS 5,5 or so. Thats 7-8 MLAS if you want to or 5-6 MLAS + 2 LPULSE with a slight penalty. Nova might become better to because GH screwed it over hard, lower damage same GH values with ED it would balance itself automatically.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...38798e9c0c9b434
6 mlas + 2 uac5.
0 penatly...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8433ac43810bcf3
6 mlas + 2 lpl
penatly...

same firepower but 1st one naturally generates less heat and got higher range on those uac5.


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...de60d70710dd8ae

0 penatly under gh, small penatly under proposed ed...

Edited by davoodoo, 03 July 2017 - 04:49 PM.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 03 July 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...38798e9c0c9b434
6 mlas + 2 uac5.
0 penatly...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8433ac43810bcf3
6 mlas + 2 lpl
penatly...

same firepower but 1st one naturally generates less heat and got higher range on those uac5.


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...de60d70710dd8ae

0 penatly under gh, small penatly under proposed ed...

The difference in builds are the UAC5 and LPULSES
You just compared a weapon system that needs ammo,is heavier and usually requires different aim for a velocity weapon and hit scan to the really good synergy on MLAS and LPULSE weaponry. Also noone forces the alpha on 6MLAS and 2LPULSES.
Fire MLAS first then the LPULSE or LPULSES + 4 MLAS and keep 2 MLAS as back up while the others are on CD or fire when the enemy is not reacting to the initial burst. Many options here. Also there is no real question which of these 2 builds is the current meta king. A slight nerf on the laser vomit is fine to me.
Also 3 LPULSES + 2 MLAS still possible. Thats 1 MLAS less then one of the current meta builds. Quad LPULSE also possible now.

I didnt say anything about cERMLAS so what if we would set its ED to 5 too. PGI already balanced MLAS to be somewhat equal to cERMLAS no need for different ED values here?
You are trying to poke holes into ED's strongest aspect. How easy it is to adjust its values on weapons.

I repeat what made ED **** was the linkage of all 3 types of weapons system on it. NOT the actual mechanic.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 03 July 2017 - 05:32 PM.

[zeves]

energy draw was the right step forward it just needed tweaking

[davoodoo]

Twinkleblade, on 03 July 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

The difference in builds are the UAC5 and LPULSES
You just compared a weapon system that needs ammo,is heavier and usually requires different aim for a velocity weapon and hit scan to the really good synergy on MLAS and LPULSE weaponry. Also noone forces the alpha on 6MLAS and 2LPULSES.
Fire MLAS first then the LPULSE or LPULSES + 4 MLAS and keep 2 MLAS as back up while the others are on CD or fire when the enemy is not reacting to the initial burst. Many options here. Also there is no real question which of these 2 builds is the current meta king. A slight nerf on the laser vomit is fine to me.
Also 3 LPULSES + 2 MLAS still possible. Thats 1 MLAS less then one of the current meta builds. Quad LPULSE also possible now.

I didnt say anything about cERMLAS so what if we would set its ED to 5 too. PGI already balanced MLAS to be somewhat equal to cERLAS no need for different ED values here?
You are trying to poke holes into ED's strongest aspect. How easy it is to adjust its values on weapons.

I repeat what made ED **** was the linkage of all 3 types of weapons system on it. NOT the actual mechanic.

I mean if i need staggerfire those mediums and pulses why would i ever use pulses?? or more accurately why would i mix pulses and mediums.
While ballistic boats with mediums as support are fine.

Wheres the benefit of your system??

You promoted kdk3 2 uac10 2 uac5 and 4 meds as premier mech and scorned 2 lpl 6 mpl kdk1 as too strong.
Too bad kdk3 is the preferred choice out of 2 builds...

Edited by davoodoo, 03 July 2017 - 05:41 PM.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 03 July 2017 - 05:31 PM, said:

I mean if i need staggerfire those mediums and pulses why would i ever use pulses?? or more accurately why would i mix pulses and mediums.
While ballistic boats with mediums as support are fine.

Wheres the benefit of your system??

First of all if you ever had to fire a laser ballisitc mix at a fast moving target, the ballisitcs and laser usually never hit the same spot.Even on assaults when they twist ballisitcs and laser usually dont hit the same component. An all laser setup always hits the same spot. Thats why laser vomit or the general idea of having all weapons hit the same spot is the meta. Having different weapon systems usually also means more spread damage. Even gauss/PPC and AC/PPC sometimes have trouble of hitting the same spot on both weapon systems because of different velocity. It requires good aim and muscle memory to have those weapons hit the same spot. Guess what weapon combo is also meta.

Also a full laser vomit build rarely alphas that much anyway. Once you start riding the heat line you start using different weapon groups to get most dps out without overheating. Laser vomits will loose their repeated alpha power and hide in cover while cooling down strategy. From what I have seen poptart and laser vomit moles still the strongest builds out there. SRM builds for pushing enemies in or keeping the enemy away from the vomits and tarts.
Knocking down a little bit of power from those is fine to me. Strongest ballistics builds are 6 AC5 mauler and the I forgot how many UAC2 Dire wolf. Guess what, they dont use laser backup.

Benefits are pretty obvious to me. Hint, look at PPC and heavy lasers here on PTS.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 03 July 2017 - 05:51 PM.

[davoodoo]

Twinkleblade, on 03 July 2017 - 05:42 PM, said:

First of all if you ever had to fire a laser ballisitc mix at a fast moving target, the ballisitcs and laser usually never hit the same spot.Even on assaults when they twist ballisitcs and laser usually dont hit the same component. An all laser setup always hits the same spot. Thats why laser vomit or the general idea of having all weapons hit the same spot is the meta. Having different weapon systems usually also means more spread damage. Even gauss/PPC and AC/PPC sometimes have trouble of hitting the same spot on both weapon systems because of different velocity. It requires good aim and muscle memory to have those weapons hit the same spot. Guess what weapon combo is also meta.

Benefits are pretty obvious to me. Hint, look at PPC and heavy lasers here on PTS.

I wouldnt start with ballistics on fast target, but then how fast are we talking about, 120 kph small lights... oh yeah, not that you pack lasers on ballistic boats to deal with those.

But having bigger alphas is not what you intend to do.
You want both my 2uac5 and 2 lpl wwarhammer variants to stagger fire.

Which means that pulses wont hit the same spot as mediums as they wont be fired together to begin with.
Also assault twisting uac5 and meds at 270m?? yeah gl.

Nice spiel you got there about gauss and ppc, but thats also thing you want to remove by promoting ballistic boats like afforementioned kodiak which delivers volley after volley of 30 dmg.

Wheres the improvement...im asking again and you havent answered yet.

Edited by davoodoo, 03 July 2017 - 05:55 PM.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 03 July 2017 - 05:47 PM, said:

I wouldnt start with ballistics on fast target, but then how fast are we talking about, 120 kph small lights... oh yeah, not that you pack lasers on ballistic boats to deal with those.

But having bigger alphas is not what you intend to do.
You want both my 2uac5 and 2 lpl wwarhammer variants to stagger fire.

Which means that pulses wont hit the same spot as mediums as they wont be fired together to begin with.

Nice spiel you got there about gauss and ppc, but thats also thing you want to remove by promoting ballistic boats like afforementioned kodiak which delivers volley after volley of 30 dmg.

Wheres the improvement...im asking again and you havent answered yet.

Sorry if my explantion isnt obvious but the improvement is simple, its easier to adjust and balance. You dont seem to understand the difference between an balanced and a balancable game mechanic. All the numbers and builds you like to throw at me just mean a situation is not balanced. I am not here to show you a balanced game. What I am trying to tell you is that ED is better as a balancable mechanic. GH is **** in terms of being balancable.
Again look at the PPC and heavy laser GH rules.
If you are trying to tell me thats fine, the discussion is over at this point because you arent looking at anything I try to tell you, you are just trying to shut ED down because you just dont like change or whatever reason.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 03 July 2017 - 06:04 PM.

[davoodoo]

Balance what?? laservomit isnt meta for months now... and yet your solution will hit it the most. Gauss/ppc snipers will just take their time between shots cause they arent firing at 270m and can afford to take time.

Sure its balancable, but we go back to discussion ppl had on these forums during ed pts.
Why do we even want ed if we need to make exceptions for every weapon, why not make such adjustments to ghost heat??

Thats also beyond 1 simple question.

Why 65 dmg(2clpl + 6cmpl) is a problem, but 30+30 dmg of 2 uac10+2uac5 isnt.
Why is 30 dmg of gauss a problem, but 30 dmg of lpl isnt.

And finally, why do we limit heavy and assault mechs to amount of firepower that medium mech should carry. That is balanced?? what a joke.

Edited by davoodoo, 03 July 2017 - 06:17 PM.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 03 July 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

Balance what?? laservomit isnt meta for months now... and yet your solution will hit it the most. Gauss/ppc snipers will just take their time between shots cause they arent firing at 270m and can afford to take time.

Sure its balancable, but we go back to discussion ppl had on these forums during ed pts.
Why do we even want ed if we need to make exceptions for every weapon, why not make such adjustments to ghost heat??

You what? Laser vomit not meta. Tell that that to the 6ERMLAS+2LPULSE ebon jaguar or the 6 LPULSE Battlemaster.
Battle master already fires in groups of 3 and is literally uneffected, 8 LLAS builds are even possible with my numbers(remeber what I said about balanced and balancable). I mean you still can use SRM + SPULSE or full splat. I am not trying to fundamentally change the game.
And yes GH works great with the new PPC and heavy laser /s
Sorry ED is just superior in handling balance. Its nice of you showing some edge cases but GH was, is and will always be ****.
All I can see is you clinging to GH because of bad ED experiences in the past and made it a personal vendetta to not allow it happen, even with my ideas only being loosly based on ED.

I simply want 4 LPPC be compareable to 2 PPC. Right now 3 LPPC is max 4 and its GH penalty.
Hell even without GH penalty 4 LPPC are hotter then 2 PPC, 4 times 5heat on LPPC for 20 heat and 2 PPC for 19 heat, not to mention the energy hardpoint investment. However because of boating issues they are all slill linked. Good work with GH.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 03 July 2017 - 06:29 PM.

[50 50]

I think the problem with the way Energy Draw ended up going was that it became a focus on how to limit the alpha to try and make the time to kill a bit longer.

Where it should have stayed is as a clearer, visible and understandable replacement for Ghost Heat and it did to that very well.
We had audible queues and the energy bar to explain things.
Ghost heat is named ghost heat because it came from "wtf did that heat come from?".

The testing started by using the weapon damage rating but other options could have been tried.
I initially thought that energy draw would use it's own 'energy value' for each weapon that was completely separate to the other values and might have been measured in the 1000s. It could even have functioned a bit differently for the different types of weapons..

eg.
It made sense to have energy draw function when an autocannon fired.
But would have made sense to have a weapon like the gauss rifle build up and store (reserve) the energy when it charged.
Didn't make a lot of sense for missiles to use the energy when fired, but might have during their cooldown when the launchers recharged.
Lasers might simply have drawn energy over their duration.

But that is just possible mechanics for it.

Given the decoupling of the mech agility from the engine ratings, there might be an opportunity to look at how a larger engine could play a part in the system and even the potential for new skills to be added.

Prior to the current changes in the game, various mechs were always seen as flat out inferior even to variants within their own chassis.
Energy draw did introduce the option for mechs to have new values in terms of the safe draw limit and energy recharge that might have helped to balance some of the weaker variants.

Now with the new weapons, maybe it's worth thinking about it again.

[Khobai]

PGI should continue work on a tweaked version of energy draw. the problem with energy draw is that it was limiting weapons that didnt need to be limited. it primarily only needs to limit PPFLD damage weapons like gauss and ppcs.

but in the meantime they could just link gauss and PPCs in the same ghost heat group.

[Savage Wolf]

Couldn't agree more. Energy Draw was always superior in terms of balancing factor. There are just so many more values to tweak and while keeping it simple.

I don't know what they ****** up in the last implementation because sadly I didn't have time when the PTS was out.

Edit: K-n-o-b-s is a bad word? Dafuq!?

Edited by Savage Wolf, 03 July 2017 - 08:32 PM.

[davoodoo]

Twinkleblade, on 03 July 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

You what? Laser vomit not meta. Tell that that to the 6ERMLAS+2LPULSE ebon jaguar or the 6 LPULSE Battlemaster.
Battle master already fires in groups of 3 and is literally uneffected, 8 LLAS builds are even possible with my numbers(remeber what I said about balanced and balancable). I mean you still can use SRM + SPULSE or full splat. I am not trying to fundamentally change the game.
And yes GH works great with the new PPC and heavy laser /s
Sorry ED is just superior in handling balance. Its nice of you showing some edge cases but GH was, is and will always be ****.
All I can see is you clinging to GH because of bad ED experiences in the past and made it a personal vendetta to not allow it happen, even with my ideas only being loosly based on ED.

I simply want 4 LPPC be compareable to 2 PPC. Right now 3 LPPC is max 4 and its GH penalty.
Hell even without GH penalty 4 LPPC are hotter then 2 PPC, 4 times 5heat on LPPC for 20 heat and 2 PPC for 19 heat, not to mention the energy hardpoint investment. However because of boating issues they are all slill linked. Good work with GH.

2 ppc + gauss ebon jag.
but ill give you pulse blr.

8 llas builds? fired in what?? 3 volleys?? even small penatly will kill this already hot weapon...

How it works great?? 2 heavy large lasers which are pretty much unusable will trigger penatly.
ppc yeah, one example when it helps, but then they are exception in gh not standard. One of few weapon groups which got gh on less than 30 dmg, use standard of 30 dmg and allow 3 ppc on gh and you got no improvement...

So far you havent told how it is superior, you just asserted that its superior because it will be superior...

increase lppc to gh limit to 4, done. This simple change requires redesign of entire system??

Cases i show is irrational fear of going over 30 dmg, yet when quite a few mechs go over 30 dmg it isnt much problem anyway.

Ed was never balanced to begin with cause it was sorted by dmg. 30 dmg of larges will always be superior to 30 dmg of mediums if you got tonnage for them. You know what ensured that medium lassers would be used on heavier mechs?? heat tonnage and crits.

Edited by davoodoo, 04 July 2017 - 02:01 AM.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 04 July 2017 - 01:56 AM, said:

2 ppc + gauss ebon jag.
but ill give you pulse blr.

8 llas builds? fired in what?? 3 volleys?? even small penatly will kill this already hot weapon...

How it works great?? 2 heavy large lasers which are pretty much unusable will trigger penatly.
ppc yeah, one example when it helps, but then they are exception in gh not standard. One of few weapon groups which got gh on less than 30 dmg, use standard of 30 dmg and allow 3 ppc on gh and you got no improvement...

So far you havent told how it is superior, you just asserted that its superior because it will be superior...

increase lppc to gh limit to 4, done. This simple change requires redesign of entire system??

Cases i show is irrational fear of going over 30 dmg, yet when quite a few mechs go over 30 dmg it isnt much problem anyway.

Ed was never balanced to begin with cause it was sorted by dmg. 30 dmg of larges will always be superior to 30 dmg of mediums if you got tonnage for them. You know what ensured that medium lassers would be used on heavier mechs?? heat tonnage and crits.

In case you missed it Iwas sarcastic about GH working on PPC and heavy lasers...
Ohter things that will never work with GH.
2LLPC and a HPPC have same GH penalty as 3 HPPC because it uses the highest heat weapon to calculate its penalty. Comparing 23pp vs 39pp, how is that fair?
And yes laser vomit is still part of the meta. Its not the only meta but is still part of it.
8LL fire in groups of 4. 6 LL stalker is probably better and might return. Just pointing out possible exploits in my own system.

I have seen a double snubnose dual HGR mauler. 60 damage alpha thats almost pinpoint(shoot ppc while charging up and right before you release the gauss shot). While I wasnt too worried when pushing that in as an Atlas, I was scared when I saw that as a medium or light. Getting one shot on your light is really fun and yay no penalty for the mauler, GH is great for not punishing a balanced build(<<<<<sarcasm).

Whats better about ED over GH is that ED penatlies are dynamic while GH is abitrary.
ED penalties can be low and escalate into very high penalties depending on weapons used allowing for far more flexibility. GH you either have it or dont.
Still believe GH is better?

[davoodoo]

3 lppc limit is a flaw in balancing not system, exactly same thing can happen if pgi for some bizarre reason decides that hppc costs 18 energy to fire whle lppc only 4...26 dmg vs 45dmg, how is that fair?

4ll fired together will triggery penatly in both your proposed ed and ghost heat. However unlike ed which you want to put penatlies universal, ghost heat have custom penatly values.

at 180m...
Hitting 120kph+ light at 180m with hgr and ppc isnt a norm, its a fluke.
Even now dual gauss+erppc can pop head with single alpha, how often do you see that happen??

Also this is not balanced build, its actually horrible build you should feel ashamed for using. Its easy to kill with horrrible range and 2 bombs strapped to your sides.
Not like you have as7s with 4x srm6a and ac20 which do 68 dmg and can oneshot lights way easier than that hgr and even if it partially hits will leave light heavily damaged or crippled all at 270m no less.

And lets take gh.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale
look at lets say lrm5
3=0
4=2.02
5=5.04
6=9.07
almost like its starts low and escalates...

Everything you want to adjust for ed you can adjust with ghost heat.
Difference is that ghost heat allows for mixed build while ed favors boating.

Edited by davoodoo, 04 July 2017 - 06:43 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Twinkleblade, on 03 July 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

The reason ED turned out like it was is because of the linking of all weapons to it. Just linking energy and gauss to the ED system and keeping GH for ballistics and missiles (for now) is a good solution for the current mess.

That would be pretty imbalanced. I have 3 viable MAD-IIC builds for instance. Implementing that change would simply remove two of the options and leave one super strong. That sounds dumb. Not sure what the current "mess" is. I know people get salty about taking large chunks of damage but that sounds like a personal problem. Not sure why we should make changes to the game to cater to them, I'd rather we have a more wellrounded game with more options.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 04 July 2017 - 06:39 AM, said:

3 lppc limit is a flaw in balancing not system, exactly same thing can happen if pgi for some bizarre reason decides that hppc costs 18 energy to fire whle lppc only 4...26 dmg vs 45dmg, how is that fair?

4ll fired together will triggery penatly in both your proposed ed and ghost heat. However unlike ed which you want to put penatlies universal, ghost heat have custom penatly values.

at 180m...
Hitting 120kph+ light at 180m with hgr and ppc isnt a norm, its a fluke.
Even now dual gauss+erppc can pop head with single alpha, how often do you see that happen??

Also this is not balanced build, its actually horrible build you should feel ashamed for using. Its easy to kill with horrrible range and 2 bombs strapped to your sides.
Not like you have as7s with 4x srm6a and ac20 which do 68 dmg and can oneshot lights way easier than that hgr and even if it partially hits will leave light heavily damaged or crippled all at 270m no less.

And lets take gh.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale
look at lets say lrm5
3=0
4=2.02
5=5.04
6=9.07
almost like its starts low and escalates...

Everything you want to adjust for ed you can adjust with ghost heat.
Difference is that ghost heat allows for mixed build while ed favors boating.

You cant adjust GH like that you completly left the larger launchers out of the equation. All LRM launcher are bound together. To GH it doesnt matter if its smaller or larger launcher for LRM. It treats LRM10 and LRM5 the same. Also you just assumed ED for missiles for which I exactly said dont do that. ED ONLY for energy weapons.

Even if we would use your example for say MLAS, you just put a small GH penatly on 4 MLAS. Its not working.

Gas Guzzler, on 04 July 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

That would be pretty imbalanced. I have 3 viable MAD-IIC builds for instance. Implementing that change would simply remove two of the options and leave one super strong. That sounds dumb. Not sure what the current "mess" is. I know people get salty about taking large chunks of damage but that sounds like a personal problem. Not sure why we should make changes to the game to cater to them, I'd rather we have a more wellrounded game with more options.

Again GH is not perfect to keep ballistics and missiles in check.
With mess I wasnt refering to current live servers, was refering to PPC family and heavy lasers GH rules as a "mess" on PTS. My aim wasnt to butcher alphas, more a unified system mechanic to keep energy weapons in check. There will be edge cases and balance issues but overall ED for energy weapon is a very balancable mechanic that will profit the game in the long run instead of sticking to GH.
Here is my idea how to balance those weapon system seperately from energy weapons.
https://mwomercs.com...ove-ghost-heat/

Maybe its not a good solution but personally I think its better than GH at any time.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 04 July 2017 - 09:55 AM.

[kapusta11]

Can't believe this thread is still going. ED was a horrible mess. Alpha stikes were hard capped. DPS was hard capped. short range lasers had the same damage cap as long range weapons. Gauss generating heat. Assaults were useless because optimal builds that reach max allowed aplha/dps were heavies, etc. You just can't tie everything to one variable, that's stupid.

Edited by kapusta11, 04 July 2017 - 10:28 AM.