155 replies to this topic

[Twinkleblade]

kapusta11, on 04 July 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

Can't believe this thread is still going. ED was a horrible mess. Alpha stikes were hard capped. DPS was hard capped. short range lasers had the same damage cap as long range weapons. Gauss generating heat. Assaults were useless because optimal builds that reach max allowed aplha/dps were heavies, etc. You just can't tie everything to one variable, that's stupid.

Thats why I personally said only for energy weapons not a full return of ED.

[Andi Nagasia]

kapusta11, on 04 July 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

Can't believe this thread is still going. ED was a horrible mess. Alpha stikes were hard capped. DPS was hard capped. short range lasers had the same damage cap as long range weapons. Gauss generating heat. Assaults were useless because optimal builds that reach max allowed aplha/dps were heavies, etc. You just can't tie everything to one variable, that's stupid.

well the Intent of ED was to reduce how much Damage you could do in a Given Time,
so in this i would say they did great and it was working as intended,

Assaults were still good, the thing was the Meta 6ML+2LPL & 2PPC+2Gauss was hard Capped,
i was actually doing rather well in my DWF, as you could now fire 3C-ERLLs with out much heat,
i would fire 1 arm wait 1.5seconds for my energy to regen, then firing my other arm,

the only people who were having huge problems with it,
were people jumping on the PTS expecting the same builds that work in Live MWO,
but even they started Mixing up their Loadouts after a wail,

yes people said it would destroy the game, and it wasnt fair, and this was the end,
which they also said about the Info Warfare, and even the Skill Tree rework,

what killed Energy Draw was too many changes too Quickly,
in 3-4 weeks i was testing Energy draw, we ran threw 7-8 different versions of it,
many were getting confused with the Energy Draw Changes mixed in with other weapon changes,
it was this that lead ED to get a bad name, as people complained that they where Changing MWO to fit ED,

it ended up being Imperius that with a Poll, that lead to a Vast Majority to say ED wasnt ready,
so PGI didnt release it, and instead of pushing it back another month, moved on to other things,
Personally i liked Energy Draw, no i dont think it was 100% ready for release, but i didnt think it was bad,

[Cy Mitchell]

No, do not bring back Energy Draw. If PGI wants to revisit the issue and look for a solution, I do not want them to revive ED and try to make it work. There are better, simpler and more elegant solutions that do not add any additional HUD elements and even make some sense relative to lore.

[Twinkleblade]

Rampage, on 04 July 2017 - 12:12 PM, said:

No, do not bring back Energy Draw. If PGI wants to revisit the issue and look for a solution, I do not want them to revive ED and try to make it work. There are better, simpler and more elegant solutions that do not add any additional HUD elements and even make some sense relative to lore.

Such as? Since ED was shot down I havent seen any work done towards removing GH. ED on energy type weapons does make sense though. The other 2 types dont make sense to have ED on.

[Cy Mitchell]

Twinkleblade, on 04 July 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

Such as? Since ED was shot down I havent seen any work done towards removing GH. ED on energy type weapons does make sense though. The other 2 types dont make sense to have ED on.

I typed up a proposal and sent it to a PGI representative just today. A few other people have made suggestions that are similar. As it is outside the scope of this section of the forum, I will not bother going into it here. If it gains any traction with PGI then I will join in the discussion but for right now, I just feel it would be a waste of time. Or I may start a thread in the General Forums after the CW PTS is done to see if it sparks interest and get a discussion going.

[Twinkleblade]

Rampage, on 04 July 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

I typed up a proposal and sent it to a PGI representative just today. A few other people have made suggestions that are similar. As it is outside the scope of this section of the forum, I will not bother going into it here. If it gains any traction with PGI then I will join in the discussion but for right now, I just feel it would be a waste of time. Or I may start a thread in the General Forums after the CW PTS is done to see if it sparks interest and get a discussion going.

Good luck then and hope that it will be accpeted. Really looking forward to what you guys came up with.

[Andi Nagasia]

Rampage, on 04 July 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

I typed up a proposal and sent it to a PGI representative just today. A few other people have made suggestions that are similar. As it is outside the scope of this section of the forum, I will not bother going into it here. If it gains any traction with PGI then I will join in the discussion but for right now, I just feel it would be a waste of time. Or I may start a thread in the General Forums after the CW PTS is done to see if it sparks interest and get a discussion going.

Energy Draw was actually such a Proposal from the Community,
so its Flaws werent only PGIs Fault but the Communities as well for the Initial Idea,
please Keep that in mind if your Proposal gets accepted and comes out, people will Pick it apart,

[Gas Guzzler]

Twinkleblade, on 04 July 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

You cant adjust GH like that you completly left the larger launchers out of the equation. All LRM launcher are bound together. To GH it doesnt matter if its smaller or larger launcher for LRM. It treats LRM10 and LRM5 the same. Also you just assumed ED for missiles for which I exactly said dont do that. ED ONLY for energy weapons.

Even if we would use your example for say MLAS, you just put a small GH penatly on 4 MLAS. Its not working.



Again GH is not perfect to keep ballistics and missiles in check.
With mess I wasnt refering to current live servers, was refering to PPC family and heavy lasers GH rules as a "mess" on PTS. My aim wasnt to butcher alphas, more a unified system mechanic to keep energy weapons in check. There will be edge cases and balance iss
ues but overall ED for energy weapon is a very balancable mechanic that will profit the game in the long run instead of sticking to GH.
Here is my idea how to balance those weapon system seperately from energy weapons.
https://mwomercs.com...ove-ghost-heat/

Maybe its not a good solution but personally I think its better than GH at any time.

I don't really see PPC family or heavy lasers (or any lasers for that matter) to be out of control at all. What game are you playing? Heavy lasers are borderline pointless... Energy weapons are "in check" and don't need to be brought there because Gauss exists.

[Ruar]

I still think having a capacitor and each weapon with it's own specific energy pull is the way to go. It's a very easy way to limit total alpha for every weapon in the game.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ruar, on 04 July 2017 - 06:10 PM, said:

I still think having a capacitor and each weapon with it's own specific energy pull is the way to go. It's a very easy way to limit total alpha for every weapon in the game.

You mean energy draw? No thanks. It has been weighed, and it has been measured, and it has been found wanting.

[Ruar]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 July 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

You mean energy draw? No thanks. It has been weighed, and it has been measured, and it has been found wanting.

Yeah, the system tested was tied to heat instead of just having an energy limitation. Having a capacitor wouldn't have anything to do with heat.

[Cy Mitchell]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 July 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

Energy Draw was actually such a Proposal from the Community,
so its Flaws werent only PGIs Fault but the Communities as well for the Initial Idea,
please Keep that in mind if your Proposal gets accepted and comes out, people will Pick it apart,

Oh, I have no doubt of that. Some people are never happy. Some do not like change. Some just enjoy complaining.

It really is not my proposal. Others have put forth similar ideas. I just wrote up a brief outline. I hold no expectations that it will be implemented but if it is then I will happily defend it against the mob.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ruar, on 04 July 2017 - 06:12 PM, said:

Yeah, the system tested was tied to heat instead of just having an energy limitation. Having a capacitor wouldn't have anything to do with heat.

So what you just can't fire and go over the capacitor limit?

Can we just have a kiddie pool mode where all weapons do 1 damage and call it good? Seriously I'm sick of these "great ideas" that are literally just because you guys want to die by 1000 papercuts instead of actually having to worry about getting hit with meaningful weapons fire.

[davoodoo]

Ruar, on 04 July 2017 - 06:12 PM, said:

Yeah, the system tested was tied to heat instead of just having an energy limitation. Having a capacitor wouldn't have anything to do with heat.

Actually there is a precedent in lore as apparently fusion engines which power mechs have these 10 in engine heat sinks to ensure engine isnt overheating when it runs at higher capacity to allow for movement and not just to provide free cooling for weapons.

Also fun fact, charging gauss weapons(even heavy) takes less energy than firing micro laser... as internal combustion engines can fire gausses but cant fire any energy weapons.

Such a lore friendly system that is...

Edited by davoodoo, 04 July 2017 - 06:25 PM.

[Ruar]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 July 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

So what you just can't fire and go over the capacitor limit?

Can we just have a kiddie pool mode where all weapons do 1 damage and call it good? Seriously I'm sick of these "great ideas" that are literally just because you guys want to die by 1000 papercuts instead of actually having to worry about getting hit with meaningful weapons fire.

Nope, but it's really cool of you to just assume an idea is bad without actually reading about it. I mean, it's not like I already talked about it on this thread or anything.

But to answer.

Each mech would have an energy capacitor. The amount each capacitor was rated would depend on class and engine weight. I'm not really sure what the best method for this would be, but it wouldn't be tough to narrow down.

Anyway, mech has an energy capacitor. For example purposes we can use 50 as the number. Each weapon then has an amount of energy required to operate. Bigger, heavier weapons would pull more energy than smaller weapons. Some weapons like Gauss or PPC would pull more than AC20s. So you could mount 2x PPC and 2x Gauss but your capacitor would only have enough energy to fire two of them at a time. PPCs could be 20 energy and Gauss could be 25. You can mount all the weapons you can fit, but you can only fire so many before you hit capacitor limit.

Then they just adjust the numbers to prevent high alphas as needed. Heat, weight, tonnage... all of those would stay the same. The energy number would be specifically used to balance how much damage a mech can fire at one time.

[davoodoo]

Ruar, on 04 July 2017 - 06:26 PM, said:

Each mech would have an energy capacitor. The amount each capacitor was rated would depend on class and engine weight. I'm not really sure what the best method for this would be, but it wouldn't be tough to narrow down.

Gauss have its own capacitor...

Its ok if you want to make new mechanic, but if you want to tie it down to lore at least make sure its consistent with lore.

I could accept energy draw under 1 condition.
Unless you actually deplete energy bar, you produce 0 heat with energy weapons.

That at least would make some sense...

[Ruar]

davoodoo, on 04 July 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

Gauss have its own capacitor...

Its ok if you want to make new mechanic, but if you want to tie it down to lore at least make sure its consistent with lore.

I could accept energy draw under 1 condition.
Unless you actually deplete energy bar, you produce 0 heat with energy weapons.

That at least would make some sense...

What I'm talking about is in lore. It's in one of the books. It was either Joanna or Natasha Kerensky who had an issue going through their blood name trial where they had to wait for their energy to charge up before firing different weapons. I'm pretty sure Gauss was one of the big contributors to the problem. However it's been about 15 years since I've read the books so I don't have all the details.

Even if it's not a perfect fit for lore (quirks) it would make a lot of sense to help with balancing.

[davoodoo]

Ruar, on 04 July 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

What I'm talking about is in lore. It's in one of the books. It was either Joanna or Natasha Kerensky who had an issue going through their blood name trial where they had to wait for their energy to charge up before firing different weapons. I'm pretty sure Gauss was one of the big contributors to the problem. However it's been about 15 years since I've read the books so I don't have all the details.

Even if it's not a perfect fit for lore (quirks) it would make a lot of sense to help with balancing.

Gauss got its own capacitors and draws less energy from engine than micro laser.

But then we are talking clan close quarters duels where they could indeed fire more often than once every 10s.

Either way gauss can be fired every standard turn. Maybe solaris 2.5s turns changed that, but i dont have the rules for that.

Hell normally mech will hit or miss depending on reading from sensors and computer calculating firing solution, but these are clans were talking here fighting in close quarters so they might just fire blindly.

Also i wouldnt cross out most obvious possibility of more dramatic writing.
Another example of that would be unarmed missiles shattering warhammer canopy and somehow doing jack **** of anything else during phantom mech incident not to mention entire incident...

Edited by davoodoo, 04 July 2017 - 07:05 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ruar, on 04 July 2017 - 06:26 PM, said:

Nope, but it's really cool of you to just assume an idea is bad without actually reading about it. I mean, it's not like I already talked about it on this thread or anything.

But to answer.

Each mech would have an energy capacitor. The amount each capacitor was rated would depend on class and engine weight. I'm not really sure what the best method for this would be, but it wouldn't be tough to narrow down.

Anyway, mech has an energy capacitor. For example purposes we can use 50 as the number. Each weapon then has an amount of energy required to operate. Bigger, heavier weapons would pull more energy than smaller weapons. Some weapons like Gauss or PPC would pull more than AC20s. So you could mount 2x PPC and 2x Gauss but your capacitor would only have enough energy to fire two of them at a time. PPCs could be 20 energy and Gauss could be 25. You can mount all the weapons you can fit, but you can only fire so many before you hit capacitor limit.

Then they just adjust the numbers to prevent high alphas as needed. Heat, weight, tonnage... all of those would stay the same. The energy number would be specifically used to balance how much damage a mech can fire at one time.

I prefer the current system.

[Lightfoot]

Ghost Heat should be 3 Light PPCs or 2 Light PPCs and one PPC.