155 replies to this topic

[Twinkleblade]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 July 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

I don't really see PPC family or heavy lasers (or any lasers for that matter) to be out of control at all. What game are you playing? Heavy lasers are borderline pointless... Energy weapons are "in check" and don't need to be brought there because Gauss exists.

You misunderstood heavy laser and PPC are not out of control, its the contrary they are useless as you stated but still have convoluted and weird GH rules. 6 ERSMALLS + 1 HSMALL have same GH penalty as 6HSMALL + 1 ERSMALL. Why?
2LPPC + 1 PPC same GH penatly as 2LPPC+ HPPC, sure makes sense(<<<sarcasm). And no, energy weapons while maybe in check on current servers, will not be once heavy laser hit live. They have to keep heavy lasers weak because of abuse cases when combined with other laser weapons.
Also its not the end XPulseLaser might be introduced on the next time jump. Good luck implementing those with GH rules.
GH is that bad. However I am open to alternatives. But until some have been presented to me I think ED for energy weapons is the way to go.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 04 July 2017 - 08:36 PM.

[Snowbluff]

I don't think limiting ED to just energy would solve anything. Gauss aren't energy weapons. Hell, I PPFLD PPC and AC5s. That's not balance, that's just being arbitrary.

Lightfoot, on 04 July 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

Ghost Heat should be 3 Light PPCs or 2 Light PPCs and one PPC.

I don't think you can code Ghost Heat like that. It's like 1s and 0s with it. It's either in the group or it's not.

Isn't like 3 LPPC is a separate group from (2 or 3) PPC? So hypothetically you could make, what, more damage and circumvent the PPFLD limitation intended by ghost heat entirely but just throwing in some light PPC?

2 Gauss, 2 PPC, 3 Light PPC would be a pain, btu I doubt that can come up... wait... NSR. :L

EDIT: Okay, people say "ED is too complicated," but I don't know what kind of low level play you're playing at not to understand a bar that says "stop shooting so much." Hell, most builds are built to ignore Ghost Heat, which has no information in game on how it works at all. You just get a warning with a vague note about heat.

Edited by Snowbluff, 04 July 2017 - 09:51 PM.

[Tim East]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 July 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

And then there's HGauss which, while accurate to TT, is basically useless as a close-range weapon because it requires a very slow 'Mech and charge time...all for 5 more points of damage than the otherwise superior AC/20.

OBJECTION!
Bushwacker. Though AC 20 is better in pretty nearly every conceivable measure, the Bushwacker brawling with the HGauss is a hilarious piece of troll-terribleness. I'd kinda like to try some even sillier builds, but that 11th crit slot screws it up every time.

[davoodoo]

Snowbluff, on 04 July 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

EDIT: Okay, people say "ED is too complicated," but I don't know what kind of low level play you're playing at not to understand a bar that says "stop shooting so much." Hell, most builds are built to ignore Ghost Heat, which has no information in game on how it works at all. You just get a warning with a vague note about heat.

Because when both systems are in place they are dealt with in mechlab.

Ghost heat at least tells you when you pack more weapons than you can fire in alpha.

But ed tells you jack **** and you can at best hope that damage=energy which wasnt the case at all...

Edited by davoodoo, 05 July 2017 - 01:23 AM.

[Reno Blade]

davoodoo, on 05 July 2017 - 01:18 AM, said:

Because when both systems are in place they are dealt with in mechlab.

Ghost heat at least tells you when you pack more weapons than you can fire in alpha.

But ed tells you jack **** and you can at best hope that damage=energy which wasnt the case at all...

Who tells us that you would not be able to see ED values in the mechlab?
I would expect a final release to have draw value in the mechlab and energy regeneration/capacity values on the mech.

[Wildstreak]

Energy Draw is a horrible, complicated way of doing things that could have been done much simpler.

GH limits now do make sense so far.

[l33tworks]

HAHHAAHAH. No. There's no three wiser decisions PGI have made than to bin ghost range and energy draw but to keep skill tree.

The first two were abominations.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 05 July 2017 - 01:18 AM, said:

Because when both systems are in place they are dealt with in mechlab.

Ghost heat at least tells you when you pack more weapons than you can fire in alpha.

But ed tells you jack **** and you can at best hope that damage=energy which wasnt the case at all...

I think the weapons tab was supposed to show you ED values on weapons although I am not sure on that one.
That way you could see if weapon groups were causing too much ED or not. At least a feature that was asked for but at that time PGI decided to shut it down.
Point is that PGI was planning on making it ED more clear in mechlab. GH never tells you how much of a penatly it gives you. You cant fire more then x amount of weapons is all that you see in the mechlab no precise numbers. GH is clarity at its finest (<<<sarcasm if you dont get it).

Edited by Twinkleblade, 05 July 2017 - 03:08 AM.

[Twinkleblade]

Wildstreak, on 05 July 2017 - 02:32 AM, said:

Energy Draw is a horrible, complicated way of doing things that could have been done much simpler.

GH limits now do make sense so far.

No GH doesnt make sense. It is the number one complain about it. Why can dual PPC + gaus rifle be penatly free and triple PPC isnt. Same for GH rules for cERSLAS and cERMLAS why are these two in the same GH group? I love pointing people at GH rules for PPC on PTS. Doesnt make sense.

I dont understand how people can still think GH is less complicated then ED. ED was simply more dynamic in dealing wiht penalties then GH will ever be. And it didnt need a 3rd party website (thanks smurfy's mechlab) to see all the actual GH numbers.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 05 July 2017 - 03:11 AM.

[davoodoo]

Twinkleblade, on 05 July 2017 - 03:02 AM, said:

Why can dual PPC + gaus rifle be penatly free and triple PPC isnt.

Because that was the goal behind gh.
To discourage extreme boating.

Even on current pts its still the main goal behind it, it might really stupid to limit lppc to 3 because of reduced dmg, but the main goal behind gh is to stop you from boating lppc

Edited by davoodoo, 05 July 2017 - 03:15 AM.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 05 July 2017 - 03:05 AM, said:

Because that was the goal behind gh.
To discourage extreme boating.

Even on current pts its still the main goal behind it, it might really stupid to limit lppc to 3 because of reduced dmg, but the main goal behind gh is to stop you from boating lppc

I am interest how triple PPC is considered boating. I understand that 6 PPC/LLAS stalker were kind of a problem. But I cant even run Dual PPC + LPPC on an vindicator. I tried Awesome with dual HPPC + triple LPPC. Firing in 2 groups, HPPC and LPPC nets you around 40% heat. 3LPPC + HPPC is close to 90% heat, while firing the 2 HPPC which have a similar damage output (1/28/1 vs 2/26/2) net you something around 25%. Firing all at once shut them mech down for quite some time.

As we can see in case of the HPPC + LPPC test, adding 1/2/1 damage shouldnt triple its heat output. Unless you think its fair that the night gyr with Dual Gauss/ERPPC is completly penalty free for a 45 damage alpha. I consider the amount of heatsinks outweighs the gausses heavy weight and ammo setup and so on but thats a different discussion of balance. Point is both pilots invested heavily in their weapon setups.

I just want you to think about the GH penalties and tell me how it is fair. Again 1 setup circumvents GH in a clever way other is punished because it kinda required a weaker chassis to "exploit" a weapon setup like that.
I mean lets assume pilots make mistakes, what will happen? The night gyr pilot might spread damage between gauss and PPC weaponry because he let go of the button too early or so.
The Awesome pilot can either shutdown in a very bad situation and/or cause himself unneeded internal damage or spread the damage over the enemy mech.
GH simply punishes the Awesome pilot in multiple ways. If I overheat because I was riding the heat line and messed up, fine I did a mistake. I get punished heavily because I acidentally fired a weapon 0.1s too early, dumb just dumb.
In ED you had the visual cue when to fire other weapon groups with its energy bar and an audio cue when overdrawing.
I mean the audio cue could be added for GH but it wouldnt solve any issues GH has. The audio cue for ED worked so well because of the added ED bar to help you learn ED values, fire control and heat management.
GH is a simple fact of knowing about it and the muscle memory yourself to perfection.

To each their own preferences but I personally would find learning about heat penalties via ED more interesting and logical then GH. ED simply had that dynamic in gameplay.

MWO has that specialty that its a unique FPS/mech simulation hybrid. However its FPS elements have abit too much emphasis. Managing your mech gives it that little bit of mech simulator back. So having a few more HUD elements is something I would like to see. Give me a feeling that I am piloting a mech, not just a dude with lots of weapons.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 05 July 2017 - 04:01 AM.

[Reno Blade]

davoodoo, on 05 July 2017 - 03:05 AM, said:

Because that was the goal behind gh.
To discourage extreme boating.

Even on current pts its still the main goal behind it, it might really stupid to limit lppc to 3 because of reduced dmg, but the main goal behind gh is to stop you from boating lppc

The goal of GH was to reduce the Alpha strike of boating.
Everyone knows that these loop holes are an eyesore for PGI and the players and are "exploiting" the limits of GH and you can get more damage in a single volley by doing so.

That's the reason they tried lately with the Energy Draw - they don't want to keep an incomplete Alpha-Limiter ingame if they can fix/replace it.

ED is a big improvement over GH, but it affects "inefficient" mixed builds at the same rate as the "OP" boats/combos.
The Advantage of GH is that it is using an exponential penalty curve the more you use, while ED is using a flat limit with cap and replenish rate.

[Twinkleblade]

Reno Blade, on 05 July 2017 - 03:46 AM, said:

The goal of GH was to reduce the Alpha strike of boating.
Everyone knows that these loop holes are an eyesore for PGI and the players and are "exploiting" the limits of GH and you can get more damage in a single volley by doing so.

That's the reason they tried lately with the Energy Draw - they don't want to keep an incomplete Alpha-Limiter ingame if they can fix/replace it.

ED is a big improvement over GH, but it affects "inefficient" mixed builds at the same rate as the "OP" boats/combos.
The Advantage of GH is that it is using an exponential penalty curve the more you use, while ED is using a flat limit with cap and replenish rate.

If I read correctly PGI tried to implement a more exponential punishment for overdrawing which also was a tipping point and cause for a ragestorm on the forums.

[davoodoo]

3lppc not really.
4lppc yeah i can see where pgi is coming from. Most mediums have 4 energy hardpoints.

At no point did pgi think to link large lasers to medium lasers which would limit laser alpha to 30 points which makes me doubt that was the goal.

Energy draw was also asked for by community during laservomit being meta.

But then i can go and ask how is 40 dmg on double armor considered unacceptably high alpha, its as ridiculous when you grew on tt and previous mechwarriors as 3 lppc considered boating.

Edited by davoodoo, 05 July 2017 - 04:40 AM.

[Reno Blade]

davoodoo, on 05 July 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:

3lppc not really.
4lppc yeah i can see where pgi is coming from. Most mediums have 4 energy hardpoints.

At no point did pgi think to link large lasers to medium lasers which would limit laser alpha to 30 points which makes me doubt that was the goal.

Energy draw was also asked for by community during laservomit being meta.

But then i can go and ask how is 40 dmg on double armor considered unacceptably high alpha, its as ridiculous when you grew on tt and previous mechwarriors as 3 lppc considered boating.

The issue with GH and linking weapons is the way it works.
e.g.
Linking LRM 10s and LRM20s currently for max of 2 launchers would mean you get GH by the biggest weapons heat value no matter the combination after 3 launcher combinations.
2x LRM10 + 1x LRM20 gets same penalty as 2x LRM20 +1x LRM10. Only 3x LRM10 get LRM10 heat level penalty.

So if PGI would decide to link 2x LP and 6x ML, you doul get a penalty already using 3 lasers of the combination.
1x LP and 2x ML would generate same GH as 3x LP.

That is the issue with GH, not that PGI did not think of it.
Please don't assume you know why PGI did or didn't do this if you don't have the facts directly from PGI.

[davoodoo]

Reno Blade, on 05 July 2017 - 04:51 AM, said:

The issue with GH and linking weapons is the way it works.
e.g.
Linking LRM 10s and LRM20s currently for max of 2 launchers would mean you get GH by the biggest weapons heat value no matter the combination after 3 launcher combinations.
2x LRM10 + 1x LRM20 gets same penalty as 2x LRM20 +1x LRM10. Only 3x LRM10 get LRM10 heat level penalty.

So if PGI would decide to link 2x LP and 6x ML, you doul get a penalty already using 3 lasers of the combination.
1x LP and 2x ML would generate same GH as 3x LP.

That is the issue with GH, not that PGI did not think of it.
Please don't assume you know why PGI did or didn't do this if you don't have the facts directly from PGI.

3 lpl=30 dmg
6 mlas=30dmg

If goal was to limit it to 30 dmg

linking 6 mlas to 3 lpl would achieve that.
You wont get more than 30 dmg

True firing 2 lpl + 2medlas would trigger lpl penatly
But then with so low damage limit this isnt anywhere near reasonable build.

Ed got a flaw of promoting extreme boating, ill never pack ac20 cause it wont reach 30 dmg and itll be horribly misaligned with anything else ill put there. Better to slap 3 snubs and call it a day.

Also someone on these forums had the better idea than going back to ed.
How about linking weapon we give each group set amount of points and weigh weapons by points
medium laser 1 point
lpl 2 points
ghost heat after 6 points.
You can do mixed builds with ballistics and lasers without everything being linked like in ed but then you can also mix and match within each group.

Ghost heat is adjustable but then looking at limits pgi put on things like rac2 or lppc, they just dont wanna do it.

And its not like im a fan of ghost heat either... Imo if you want to limit amount of weapons fired then get rid of heat, you dont need 2 mechanics for same purpose

Edited by davoodoo, 05 July 2017 - 07:15 AM.

[Reno Blade]

davoodoo, on 05 July 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

3 lpl=30 dmg
6 mlas=30dmg

If goal was to limit it to 30 dmg

linking 6 mlas to 3 lpl would achieve that.
You wont get more than 30 dmg

True firing 2 lpl + 2medlas would trigger lpl penatly
But then with so low damage limit this isnt anywhere near reasonable build.

Why not? it's 30 damage, right, so we have another flaw with these numbers that PROMOTES boating a single weapon again. (choose 3x LP or 6x ML)

Quote

Ed got a flaw of promoting extreme boating, ill never pack ac20 cause it wont reach 30 dmg and itll be horribly misaligned with anything else ill put there. Better to slap 3 snubs and call it a day.

I disagree because it does not make a difference what you fire. AC20 + PPC or 3x PPC for 30 dmg.

But as I said, that is the main downside of ED, the penalty is global and does not touch boats more than mixed builds.

Quote

Also someone on these forums had the better idea than going back to ed.
How about linking weapon we give each group set amount of points and weigh weapons by points
medium laser 1 point
lpl 2 points
ghost heat after 6 points.
You can do mixed builds with ballistics and lasers without everything being linked like in ed but then you can also mix and match within each group.

So this is what ED is doing.
Instead of values of 1 or 2 with a cap of 6, you would have have 4-5x that value: 4-5 for medium laser and about 8-10 for LP while FLPPD had higher values of 1:1 dmg to Draw ~10 for a PPC and the cap was 30.

Now what is the difference to your example? higher values can be fine-tuned better than 1.0 or 1.05 or whatever points a single ML would need to do.

Quote

Ghost heat is adjustable but then looking at limits pgi put on things like rac2 or lppc, they just dont wanna do it.

And its not like im a fan of ghost heat either... Imo if you want to limit amount of weapons fired then get rid of heat, you dont need 2 mechanics for same purpose

What GH does good is using a exponential curve that affects boating same weapons.
This does not affect lower counts (e.g. 1 PPC vs 3 PPC builds).

The best goal would be to have a mix of the two where we would get more penalized the more you are alpha striking with boated weapons.

But to be fair, the only reason why penalty of mixed build is so hated is because everyone is so used to be able to use these loop-holes for as much Alpha as you can build - including the famous ED Atlas example of AC20 + 4x SRM6 + 2x ML.
I would happily take ED as it was and never see such strong Alphas without penalties anymore.

[MustrumRidcully]

I don't know. I theoretically like the "flavour" behind Energy Draw, but in practice, that flavour cannot really be retained. No one could tell me that autocannons would draw any noteworthy amount of power compared to that of a laser, for example.

And then it's just another system on top of the existing systems. Just as Ghost Heat, except it even invents a new resource to consider when building a mech.

I think the energy boating could have been curtailed by a lower heat capacity and a higher dissipation. Alpha Strike boats produce a lot of heat at once, a low heat cap would limit the effectiveness (especially in the typical sniper and trading situations where you don't want to fall asleep while out of cover). A high dissipation ensures you still can field multiple weapons, but you must chain-fire them.

Autocannons could follow the Clan Auto-cannon model where you shoot multiple bullets in short succession. Maybe combine with a a bit of recoil effect, and they aren't pinpoint precise, especially not when group-fired.

The only remaining item I'd be concerned about are Gauss Rifles. For those, I could see that a Gauss Rifle needs the mech to have not fired the last 0.25 before it can be fired, and no weapon being fireable 0.25 seconds after the GR has been fired.

Since missiles spread a lot, I don't really see a strong reason to do something like ghost heat. But if necessary, one could increase their spread when group-fired (e.g. multiple launchers are engaged within a short, say 0.25 to 0.5 time frame).

[davoodoo]

Reno Blade, on 05 July 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

Why not? it's 30 damage, right, so we have another flaw with these numbers that PROMOTES boating a single weapon again. (choose 3x LP or 6x ML)


I disagree because it does not make a difference what you fire. AC20 + PPC or 3x PPC for 30 dmg.

But as I said, that is the main downside of ED, the penalty is global and does not touch boats more than mixed builds.


So this is what ED is doing.
Instead of values of 1 or 2 with a cap of 6, you would have have 4-5x that value: 4-5 for medium laser and about 8-10 for LP while FLPPD had higher values of 1:1 dmg to Draw ~10 for a PPC and the cap was 30.

Now what is the difference to your example? higher values can be fine-tuned better than 1.0 or 1.05 or whatever points a single ML would need to do.



What GH does good is using a exponential curve that affects boating same weapons.
This does not affect lower counts (e.g. 1 PPC vs 3 PPC builds).

The best goal would be to have a mix of the two where we would get more penalized the more you are alpha striking with boated weapons.

But to be fair, the only reason why penalty of mixed build is so hated is because everyone is so used to be able to use these loop-holes for as much Alpha as you can build - including the famous ED Atlas example of AC20 + 4x SRM6 + 2x ML.
I would happily take ED as it was and never see such strong Alphas without penalties anymore.

Yes, flat damage promotes boating.

Only benefit to mediums is great tonnage/dmg ratio, so what happens when you got no worry about tonnage but need to keep it under 30?? throw out meds...

Ofc youll boat, just like everyone boated **** during ed.
ac20+ ppc wont work cause these 2 have different velocities, ranges and minimum ranges. 3ppc is superior choice.

Except that on top of doing what this system does. ED also linked all weapons together. Prepare your **** for gausspocalypse, then ppcocalypse, then pulsepocalypse, then largepocalypse then idk what cause everything that was worth boating on assaults is dead. Ppl will go back to 4 uac5 kgc or some other ****.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...51dffd2cb6608da
brawltlas
81.6 firepower, truly impressive.
Except for the fact that 51.6dmg is spread over area and 10 is spread over 0.9s...

Thats ******* bambi unless you allow this to get within 90m.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f8f7ffbeabb46c2
60 dmg at twice the range, with way higher sustained dps, exploiting no loophole of either ed or gh.

Ppl really need to drop idea that 80 dmg on brawl range assault is much... it is 100 tonner, it should have twice the firepower of 50 tonner which brings 50.80 alpha...
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fdaba5d31fdfc88
It would be fairly fair to expect it to bring at least 4 times as much firepower as 20 tonner which can bring 30dmg...
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...267fda9749e423c

Edited by davoodoo, 05 July 2017 - 08:24 AM.

[Reno Blade]

that 100tonner can bring twice the damage, but it should not be twice the alpha strike burst, or you are one-shotting that medium mech.
while it's powerful and fun to insta-kill someone, getting one-shot is NO fun.

Yes, AC spam was the "loop-hole" of ED, as i said, because there is no exponential curve as in GH - the main flaw of ED.
Only way for ED to work halfway decent would be to have slower dissipation and higher values for ACs, so their stacked dps would be reduced compared to single-weapon dps.
Just firing on cooldown would deplete your 20draw/sec dissipation, i think. and lower dissipation would reduce the build (and all others) to short burst instead of infinite dps.