23 replies to this topic

[Birthright]

Optimal range for ATMs is ~ 300m.
Their firing arc is very low,
still their max range is 1100m base.

WHY?

1.) They will never hit something at this range with this firing arc

2.) They will all be shutdown by any AMS in the flying path since the missile speed is so slow

3.) They do literally no damage at max range, their damage falls off after 300m range into nothingness.

So why not just give them a max range of lets say 600m?

If you leave it at 1100 (which is even higher than LRM base range),
many "new players" will simply fire these things at max range and do 0 damage.
This will even be more painful to watch than the common LRM boat potato.

With the skill tree, you can achieve a max range of 1250m on these missiles, while doing absolutely no damage at this range.

Still there will be people spamming these missiles at max range, effectively trolling the enemy team with 0 damage missiles and their own team by wasting all their ammo for nothing.

Can we please make this weapon system usefull, less annoying and more new player friendly?

Minimum range: 120m
Maximum range: 650m
Optimal range: 300m

This way its a medium range LRM so to speak with better DPS but shorter range.
It is more flexible than streaks because it can do damage beyond their range and has a more indirect firing arc (so you can fire them from 2nd line) and has more punch, but will perform worse under optimal streak conditions (optimum range and frontline, no minimum range).

This way the weapon could see use.


btw.:

might be a bug, but right now any %range quirks also increase the minimum range (where no damage is dealt).

Edited by Birthright, 04 July 2017 - 04:26 AM.

[Admiral-Dan]

Birthright, on 04 July 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

might be a bug, but right now any %range quirks also increase the minimum range (where no damage is dealt).

PGI, pls fix this.

[MustrumRidcully]

The drop off past optimum range will be worse if they lower the range.

Conceptually, i think they should definitely have less range then LRMs, but practically, ith the damage drop off alone, it would be dumb to fire them past, I dunno, 800m or so?

[Savage Wolf]

So what? It doesn't make sense on LRMs either. You never use the damn things past 500m anyway. Or on LB-X autocannons. Only used in brawls, but can have ranges above 500m.

[Antares102]

AlphaEtOmega, on 04 July 2017 - 04:48 AM, said:

PGI, pls fix this.

Lol, I actually anticipated this but was too scared to test it.
PGI really sticks to murphy's law: Everything that can go wrong will eventually go wrong
Or in PGI world: Every bug that can be implemented will be implemented

[Damnedtroll]

Birthright, on 04 July 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

They will never hit something at this range with this firing arc

Yep that's one of the problem... they are not good at long range and have a big minimum range... they have the drawback of each type of ammo of TT but not a lot of their advantage. Jack of all trade weapon for hardpoint poor battlemech that do anything worse than what he replace presently...

It cannot replace boating of one kind of weapon for sure and it's not their purpose.

Boosting arcing at long range, maybe a variable arcing? Bring down the minimum range to 60m would be a good first steps.

To hit a target at long range I have to bring my torso looking up and my arm unlocked looking down to lock the enemy, i don't even see where i am going, lol, but it work and do descent damage.

Edited by Damnedtroll, 04 July 2017 - 08:00 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Birthright, on 04 July 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

Optimal range for ATMs is ~ 300m.
Their firing arc is very low,
still their max range is 1100m base.

WHY?

1.) They will never hit something at this range with this firing arc

2.) They will all be shutdown by any AMS in the flying path since the missile speed is so slow

3.) They do literally no damage at max range, their damage falls off after 300m range into nothingness.

So why not just give them a max range of lets say 600m?

If you leave it at 1100 (which is even higher than LRM base range),
many "new players" will simply fire these things at max range and do 0 damage.
This will even be more painful to watch than the common LRM boat potato.

With the skill tree, you can achieve a max range of 1250m on these missiles, while doing absolutely no damage at this range.

Still there will be people spamming these missiles at max range, effectively trolling the enemy team with 0 damage missiles and their own team by wasting all their ammo for nothing.

1. Yes their trajectory is lower than LRMs but this actually will get them to the target a bit sooner because they travel less distance.

2. They travel the same speed as a LRM but you may be correct that they will be within range of more AMS that they may fly over on the way to their target,

3. Their damage does not "fall off" it steps down at 450M and remains constant out to maximum range. At maximum range they do the same damage per missile as a LRM missile does.

I actually think that they are more newbie friendly with the excepting of the minimum damage. A new player can equip these, lock on to a target at any distance from 120-1100m and be assured that they will do some amount of damage if the target is not packing a bunch of AMS or moves behind cover. AMS and cover are going to counter and make every other missile system in the game less effective also.

Remember that you can use the skill tree to increase velocity also. Having said that, I would like to see the velocity of both ATMs and LRMs increased to 250m. I would also like to see the trajectory of the ATMs flattened out to differentiate them more from the LRMs. Finally, I would like to see the ATMs do 1 damage below 120m or have a drop-off like the LRM under 120m.

[Chris Lowrey]

Birthright, on 04 July 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

might be a bug, but right now any %range quirks also increase the minimum range (where no damage is dealt).

Going to need others to chime in on this if it is happening and provide videos / examples, as currently, Quirk / Skill Tree Enhancements should not be affecting minimum range. And my own testing is showing that this it is currently not affecting the Minimum range.

If people are encountering this, be sure to provide us with proof that it is linked to range enhancements, and is not just the standard minimum range.

There is one important aspect to remember about this though. The missiles track the physical range traveled by the projectile, not what the sensor range finder shows. Bellow you'll see an image of an Atlas from the side. While the sensor lock is tracking the target as being in 120 meters, be aware that the weapon range finder is indicating that the geometry under the reticle is only 111 meters away.



This is because the Sensor is tracking the target from a central point and does not account for the physical geometry and angle of attack. So be aware of this while testing.

Another point on range quirks / nodes and ATM launchers, While Range Quirks / Skill nodes do not affect minimum range, they do affect the different "damage plateau" ranges. So a full 15% range boost will see the High Explosive rounds provide their damage at slightly over 300 meters out.

[kapusta11]

So why not remove min range, Chris? LRMs are still more effective than ATMs within 270-540m range and firing ATMs beyond that range is a waste. They only have an edge at 120-270m and even then they are twice as easy to shoot down compared to LRMs. Reduce ARM's short range damage to 2.5 if you're afraid of them being OP.

BTW I appreciate that you're responding to player's feedback. Keep it up.

Edited by kapusta11, 04 July 2017 - 10:19 AM.

[Mercworks]

They give them a higher range to make up for the new minimum range they added in from 0-120 meters.

[Cy Mitchell]

Chris Lowrey, on 04 July 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

Going to need others to chime in on this if it is happening and provide videos / examples, as currently, Quirk / Skill Tree Enhancements should not be affecting minimum range. And my own testing is not showing this as the case.

I tested with a Mad Dog 2xATM9/2xATM3 and 6xuerL. It has 10% Range enhancement through ST nodes. I went to Terra Therma testing ground and went to the Atlas. I stood behind it at exactly 120M according to sensors AND range indicator. I fired at 120m and scored damage. Interestingly, the ATM9s and the ATM3s have different cooldowns. The next time I fired the ATM3s went off by themselves and through the target with no damage. The ATM9s then fired and did damage. Next I backed up 1 meter. The ATM3s now did damage. Note that the ATM3s and in the lower launcher and therefore slightly forward on the MDD chassis compared to the higher mounted ATM9s. This shows that the minimum range to do damage is very precise. It also disproves the allegation that the range boost are raising minimum as well as maximum ranges. If that were the case my MDD would not have done damage under 132m.

Edited by Rampage, 04 July 2017 - 11:03 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Rampage, on 04 July 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

1. Yes their trajectory is lower than LRMs but this actually will get them to the target a bit sooner because they travel less distance.

This is false. Snuggles did a video comparison on ATM vs LRM and in the Youtube Video, he fires a combined LRM/ATM salvo and you can see that both sets of missile hit at the exact same time.



I think it is at the 3:10 mark where you see this.

So call it a bug but PGI seems to have gotten velocity mixed up with "Time on Target" because due to their flat arc, ATM should be hitting well before the LRMs hit.

Chris Lowrey, on 04 July 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

Going to need others to chime in on this if it is happening and provide videos / examples, as currently, Quirk / Skill Tree Enhancements should not be affecting minimum range. And my own testing is showing that this it is currently not affecting the Minimum range.

If people are encountering this, be sure to provide us with proof that it is linked to range enhancements, and is not just the standard minimum range.

There is one important aspect to remember about this though. The missiles track the physical range traveled by the projectile, not what the sensor range finder shows. Bellow you'll see an image of an Atlas from the side. While the sensor lock is tracking the target as being in 120 meters, be aware that the weapon range finder is indicating that the geometry under the reticle is only 111 meters away.



This is because the Sensor is tracking the target from a central point and does not account for the physical geometry and angle of attack. So be aware of this while testing.

Another point on range quirks / nodes and ATM launchers, While Range Quirks / Skill nodes do not affect minimum range, they do affect the different "damage plateau" ranges. So a full 15% range boost will see the High Explosive rounds provide their damage at slightly over 300 meters out.

Hey Chris, while your here. I just posted a video showing a Bug with ATM velocity. According to the tool tip the velocity for ATMs and LRMs should be the same however, despite the much further distance an LRM has to fly due to the arc, they are hitting at exactly the same time as the ATM hits the target.


At about 3:10 mark you see it happening.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 04 July 2017 - 02:03 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Viktor Drake, on 04 July 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

This is false. Snuggles did a video comparison on ATM vs LRM and in the Youtube Video, he fires a combined LRM/ATM salvo and you can see that both sets of missile hit at the exact same time.


I think it is at the 3:10 mark where you see this.

So call it a bug but PGI seems to have gotten velocity mixed up with "Time on Target" because due to their flat arc, ATM should be hitting well before the LRMs hit.




Hey Chris, while your here. I just posted a video showing a Bug with ATM velocity. According to the tool tip the velocity for ATMs and LRMs should be the same however, despite the much further distance an LRM has to fly due to the arc, they are hitting at exactly the same time as the ATM hits the target.


At about 3:10 mark you see it happening.

That is interesting. I did not equip LRMs and ATMs together and test this. Watching the video, it appeared to me that the ATMs did get there first with the first of the LRMs arriving about midway through the ATM stream. IF that is the case I am not sure it is enough of a difference with the additional distance that the LRMs have to travel by taking the more arcing path.

It would be a better test if we could get 3 people in a private lobby with one being the shooter, another being the target and a third being an observer who would be located perpendicular to the path of the missiles. Also we would have to push the range out to 900 Meters to get the maximum variation between the two missile types.

[Chris Lowrey]

Viktor Drake, on 04 July 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Hey Chris, while your here. I just posted a video showing a Bug with ATM velocity. According to the tool tip the velocity for ATMs and LRMs should be the same however, despite the much further distance an LRM has to fly due to the arc, they are hitting at exactly the same time as the ATM hits the target.

I cannot get into the engine reasons behind why this is so, but for the moment, this is intentional and by design. But again, everything is subject to feedback and review. So if you feel there is some gameplay reason that ATM's should have faster velocities then LRM's, we'll be sure to look over that feedback against what we are wanting to do with the weapon.

[Andi Nagasia]

Chris i feel that LRMs & ATMs should have their Velocities increased,
this would be to help boths Viability, and increase their reliability at longer Ranges,
(as Missiles will arrive to their Destinations Sooner)(LINK HERE)

[Damnedtroll]

Augmenting arc with distance bracket would be very good, maybe less than lrm but a little bit more.

[The6thMessenger]

Chris Lowrey, on 04 July 2017 - 02:32 PM, said:

So if you feel there is some gameplay reason that ATM's should have faster velocities then LRM's, we'll be sure to look over that feedback against what we are wanting to do with the weapon.

Being easily shutdown by AMS due to lower missile count, especially tonnage-wise, like LRM20 vs ATM12. Velocity is a good idea, but i feel that missile health should be increased instead.

At any rate, you should visit threads about other weapons too. Would ease people by having answers, cause there's just lots of silence from the devs when the weapon they are excited the most seems to need the most work.

Andi Nagasia, on 04 July 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

Chris i feel that LRMs & ATMs should have their Velocities increased,
this would be to help boths Viability, and increase their reliability at longer Ranges,
(as Missiles will arrive to their Destinations Sooner)(LINK HERE)

If i would ever touch the velocity, i'd just make it so they have variable velocity over ranges: https://mwomercs.com...ile-speed-atms/

The thing is that, the only issue is long range right? So why not just introduce fast flight over long range?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 04 July 2017 - 03:22 PM.

[Chris Lowrey]

The6thMessenger, on 04 July 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

At any rate, you should visit threads about other weapons too. Would ease people by having answers, cause there's just lots of silence from the devs when the weapon they are excited the most seems to need the most work.

I'm looking over everything, but the radio silence is more because we do not want to dictate the overall discussion. We want to allow everyone to speak their own opinions and to debate the merits among yourselves without dev involvement weighting the discussion in any singular direction.

The only times that I will directly try and intervene is when there is either false or incorrect information getting out there, to ask for more information or clarify some things with you guys (see initial post in this thread,) Or in order to throw something out there in order to get a discussion started. Such as my last post.

We are not intervening in other discussions primarily because we do not want to get in the way of discussion or debate. I'll respond to threads in which I feel I have to to get more information, to clear up a misconception floating around, etc. But beyond that, we want to observe what everyone else has to say about what is currently up on the test servers.

[pyrocomp]

Chris Lowrey, on 04 July 2017 - 02:32 PM, said:

I cannot get into the engine reasons behind why this is so, but for the moment, this is intentional and by design. But again, everything is subject to feedback and review. So if you feel there is some gameplay reason that ATM's should have faster velocities then LRM's, we'll be sure to look over that feedback against what we are wanting to do with the weapon.

Is it possible for ATMs to have different speed at different flight stages? To be more comparable to cSRMs (ATMs are hotter, heavier and can have higher spread for their damage) at lower ranges, on par with cSSRMs (damage, spread, etc.) and later slowing down to match to LRMs?

[Jep Jorgensson]

To the OP: If you are going to ask that, then why not ask why gauss and PPC's have such long ranges? They are supposed to have ranges of 660 meters and 690 meters (ATM's are supposed to range out to 810 meters, far beyond that of anything else). In short, PGI doubled their ranges and gave about 50% more range to ATM's (but only to the long range phase where they deal very little damage).

So, again, if you are going to ask that, then why not ask why gauss and PPC's have such long ranges?

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 04 July 2017 - 05:53 PM.