124 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 05 July 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

Clan LRMs or IS LRM5s without Artemis and/or TAG, no way you are spreading chainfired every .52 sec IS LRM15s like that, especially not in an Ebon Jag. Now cLRMs just pissing out in long streams or small bunches of missiles in wide groupings (IS LRM5) that can accomplished against, but against any top teir LRM boat you can not pull that off since you just get crunched before you can by whittled down. I would bet $20 bucks on that being a result of a MDD with x6 cLRM5s post nerf, which is why no one should ever play build anymore or even use a MDD for LRMs in general since the NTG-D & ON1-IIC-A are vastly superior LRM platforms now.

People never try to teach people how to LRM correctly, they just say they are "bad" (which in the gross caricature Comp has become is true) while they are quite good when used correctly in the right mech with the right build. Just like every other weapon system... when used correctly by someone who knows what they are doing, LRMs are devastating in Solo Queue. The vast majority of people who use LRMs use them just as poorly as the vast majority of people who use all the other weapon systems, bad builds & bad skills being much more visible is why LRMs are targeted for so much hate.

Lol no. It wasn't 6xLRM5 Mad Dog. It was IS Trebuchet + Clan Lurm boat.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 July 2017 - 06:00 PM.

[TKSax]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 05 July 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

People never try to teach people how to LRM correctly, they just say they are "bad" (which in the gross caricature Comp has become is true) while they are quite good when used correctly in the right mech with the right build. Just like every other weapon system... when used correctly by someone who knows what they are doing, LRMs are devastating in Solo Queue. The vast majority of people who use LRMs use them just as poorly as the vast majority of people who use all the other weapon systems, bad builds & bad skills being much more visible is why LRMs are targeted for so much hate.

No Matter how good a mech is with LRMS it will always be less effective than a mech with Direct Fire Weapons. LRMs always hit random locations, not matter how good you are with them as you have no control where they will hit. However If I was in that Match with El Bandito he would have been dead long before his mech look like that becuase I would have been hitting his center toroso, or picked his side torso's off long before any expert LRM board could have sanded him down.

[Alexander of Macedon]

And on a related note, in solo QP it doesn't much matter what 'mech someone's in so much as how good they are with it, and how skilled they are generally. A mediocre player in any mech, even a sub-par lurmboat, can still outperform a section of the playerbase.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

El Bandito, on 05 July 2017 - 05:55 PM, said:

Lol no. It wasn't 6xLRM5 Mad Dog. It was IS Trebuchet + Clan Lurm boat.

Ok... a badly built 7M without NARC and probably without TAG (which is a shame cause that is the best Medium LRM boat after the HBK-4J got nerfed so badly) & cLRMs. Case in point, of poorly built and inferior weapons systems used by people so bad that they can not even build their Mechs correctly which makes their skill level at using them highly questionable to say the least. Judging by Potato works both ways, how many just terribads run cERPPC/cGauss and can not even hit a stationary mech??? By your logic, then cERPPC/cGauss is garbage and should never be used. Somehow F u s i o n using it is the standard by which cERPPC/cGauss is be judged as a weapon system but the worst potato you can find is how LRMs are to be judged. It is a fallacious argument as presented in that context.

TKSax, on 05 July 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

No Matter how good a mech is with LRMS it will always be less effective than a mech with Direct Fire Weapons. LRMs always hit random locations, not matter how good you are with them as you have no control where they will hit. However If I was in that Match with El Bandito he would have been dead long before his mech look like that becuase I would have been hitting his center toroso, or picked his side torso's off long before any expert LRM board could have sanded him down.

Your argument would have immensely more merit if we were playing a Single Player game, but since this is a Team Based game that requires Teamwork to Win then it falls apart. The "role" of LRM Support is melt mechs, getting Kills is secondary and almost accidental. Stripping all the armor of mechs so your teammates will actually Focus Fire trying to "secure" the Kill will amplify the Application of Force by many times since it incentivizes your teammates to do what they should be doing anyways but rarely do since very few actually have any understanding of the game we are playing is fundamentally based upon. Sure... in Comp with cooperative agreement by all to abuse the failures of PGI ignorance and/or incompetence into a gross caricature of what the game is supposed to be, it is highly warped to the point of almost unrecognizability of a ruleset of that game. But in Solo Queue the game is still fairly close to Battletech, Mid-Range & Brawling achieve Victory there while the "Meta" mechs are just detriments to whatever team that gets stuck with them. Get too much of those cancer mechs & pilots on your team and the team is dead before the loading screen timer even finishes ticking down.

[El Bandito]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 05 July 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

Ok... a badly built 7M without NARC and probably without TAG (which is a shame cause that is the best Medium LRM boat after the HBK-4J got nerfed so badly) & cLRMs. Case in point, of poorly built and inferior weapons systems used by people so bad that they can not even build their Mechs correctly which makes their skill level at using them highly questionable to say the least. Judging by Potato works both ways, how many just terribads run cERPPC/cGauss and can not even hit a stationary mech??? By your logic, then cERPPC/cGauss is garbage and should never be used. Somehow F u s i o n using it is the standard by which cERPPC/cGauss is be judged as a weapon system but the worst potato you can find is how LRMs are to be judged. It is a fallacious argument as presented in that context.

Hahahaha. You haven't even seen their builds and talk as if you were in the match. Mate, I have mained LRM boats since 2012, and have four years of dedicated lurming experience. I know all the ins and out of LRMs--ask around--heck I got my first Ace of Spades in a LRM boat. Which is why I can tell you straight up that they are sub par when compared to direct fire weapons--especially in current form.

You will see the truth as well, as you keep on playing. For now, go ahead and preach about how awesome LRMs are Solo-Q, especially in lower tier populated by potatoes.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 July 2017 - 08:36 PM.

[TKSax]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 05 July 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

Your argument would have immensely more merit if we were playing a Single Player game, but since this is a Team Based game that requires Teamwork to Win then it falls apart. The "role" of LRM Support is melt mechs, getting Kills is secondary and almost accidental. Stripping all the armor of mechs so your teammates will actually Focus Fire trying to "secure" the Kill will amplify the Application of Force by many times since it incentivizes your teammates to do what they should be doing anyways but rarely do since very few actually have any understanding of the game we are playing is fundamentally based upon. Sure... in Comp with cooperative agreement by all to abuse the failures of PGI ignorance and/or incompetence into a gross caricature of what the game is supposed to be, it is highly warped to the point of almost unrecognizability of a ruleset of that game. But in Solo Queue the game is still fairly close to Battletech, Mid-Range & Brawling achieve Victory there while the "Meta" mechs are just detriments to whatever team that gets stuck with them. Get too much of those cancer mechs & pilots on your team and the team is dead before the loading screen timer even finishes ticking down.

LOL I am not sure why I bother however, I can assure you if LRM's were more effective then Direct Fire comp player will use them but they have been tried over and over and have continued to lose out to direct fire. Most comp matches right now brawling is very strong, but you will not see a lrm boat at all in any of those matches either.

[Aim64C]

The problem:

Player experiences differ greatly between their tiers. Differences in piloting skill, aptitude, or capability generate a scenario where a certain weapon system ranges from overwhelmingly powerful on one end of play to underwhelming and insignificant on higher ends of play.

Proposed solution:

The key obstacle to new player experience is the sense of frustration and helplessness that comes with single-elimination combat. Each individual player death is very important to determining the overall odds of victory for the team. Even the best players can be easily overwhelmed in this game by comparison to more common shooters on the market.

The solution is to remove the single-elimination aspect of the core gameplay. Persistent server environments with some form of re-spawn mechanic where emphasis is placed on team objectives over attrition of the opposing team removes this pressure. Other mechanics can be introduced to discourage blatant 'suicide' recklessness (repair and rearm costs during gameplay, for example - while trial mechs can always be used 'for free'). Players can experience a death and, again, attempt to challenge the threat. Death is a temporary setback rather than an outright loss.

This makes player tiers far less important in gameplay matching and potentially serves as a platform for allowing more experienced players to raise the overall skill level of the player base. The current server environment lacks much of any ability for more experienced players to coach newer players - and even little incentive to do so. It's better for us experienced players to just focus on the task of killing OPFOR than it is to try and lead an impromptu crash course on evasion or gunnery.

That is the key problem with MWO at the moment. The disparity between experiences with LRMs is more of a product of this than it is a specific issue with the weapon. Changes to the weapon system will only amplify this - a 'better LRM' will only make it worse for "potatoland" - who are still a valid portion of the customer base; while making it less devastating in said land of tubers will essentially remove it from the game in higher tiers of play.

While I can run LRMs relatively effectively in a Supernova A and clear 1600 damage on a good game... when you consider that's something around 20 full LRM 20x4 volleys hitting their target supplemented by 4 medium lasers... that is the amount of damage I need to clear to be able to be as effective as my Supernova 1 build that just turns the thing into one giant single heat sink and 8 medium lasers (turns out to be fairly tanky... although it seems like internal structure amounts aren't being taken into account like they should... that, or I am misunderstanding how it works). Point-and-melt is much more effective than "hold lock to sandblast."

It's true that the LRM boat has options to engage targets that I can't with old melty, but those options are severely dependent on target awareness/skill and team positioning while the damage being output is scattered... severely so. I have seen 'mechs dropped into the single digit percentage 'health' ratings before going down to LRM fire. While this is good for damage numbers and component destruction scores... it's horrible when you consider 150 damage from a laser-vomit build can core an opponent or trim off a torso (and arm full of weapons) in the same amount of time it takes an LRM boat to lock a target and deliver missiles to it.

I popped up over a ridge and melted everything but a couple lasers off of a Direwolf just as a "oh, hey - look what's there!" Before it ever got to fire one of them at my team, it was reduced to being a light mech with the speed of an assault. Place my LRM build in that same position, and it would have taken at least twice as long to kill it with LRM bombardment and most of its weapons would have remained functional through that process.

True - I could do the same from behind the hill with an LRM boat, and that is why I have some LRM builds to play with, because I can shoot at things that aren't right in front of my face - but you have to pack so much more ammo per ton of weapon than with ballistics if you want to have a decent primary weapon in them. And "decent" is relative.

[Aim64C]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 05 July 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

Ok... a badly built 7M without NARC and probably without TAG (which is a shame cause that is the best Medium LRM boat after the HBK-4J got nerfed so badly) & cLRMs. Case in point, of poorly built and inferior weapons systems used by people so bad that they can not even build their Mechs correctly which makes their skill level at using them highly questionable to say the least. Judging by Potato works both ways, how many just terribads run cERPPC/cGauss and can not even hit a stationary mech??? By your logic, then cERPPC/cGauss is garbage and should never be used. Somehow F u s i o n using it is the standard by which cERPPC/cGauss is be judged as a weapon system but the worst potato you can find is how LRMs are to be judged. It is a fallacious argument as presented in that context.

So... there's no point in bringing a weapon system if it does not have two other weapon systems to go along with it?

I http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f82fe5e099d9185

This thing is perfectly functional. Actually, works pretty damned well because it actually dissipates heat (instead of the lie that DHS are) I don't need to tie up a ballistic hardpoint to make all of my medium lasers viable. I don't need a 5 ton energy weapon to make my lasers viable, either.

Why should I have to take along Artemis, TAG, and a NARC in order to make missiles into a viable weapon platform? You're talking more support tonnage and slots than actual weapon.

[Navid A1]

"Nerf Lurms"
lol

and to think PGI gets their feedback from the forums... no wonder every balancing attempt is just herp derps

[Ngamok]

[LordBraxton]

I think LRMs are fine, and perhaps a little weak, but I feel like the comparison to direct fire is missing the psychological factor that 'incoming missiles' has, as well as indirect fire\target decay getting you hits over walls. A lot of people dont use radar derp.

LRMs are great in solo queue. Against a disorganized team they are BETTER than direct fire I would argue.The issue with LRMs is, they rely on your opponent being bad more than skill, though positioning and fire discipline is a tricky art. If an opponent is really good, they wont let you get much 'free damage.'

Ive been pug stomping with LRMs lately and it's fun and easy. Mixed results in group queue, naturally.

Tier 2 if it matters? (everyone is tier 1 by now?)

Edited by LordBraxton, 05 July 2017 - 09:09 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

The solution is to remove the single-elimination aspect of the core gameplay.

All this does is let a bad player be bad multiple times, as factional play shows. And it does nothing to LRMs other than meaning you'll more likely run out of ammo before you run out of targets. From experience elsewhere, there is nothing better for creating mountains of salt than repeatedly, systematically ganking the same player over and over.

[Vellron2005]

Personally, I can't wait for the shite storm that will be unfolding on these forums with all the weepers crying about ATMs..

From what I've seen on the PTS, they will combine attributes of LRMs and SSRM's.. so yeah.. there will be lots and lots of crying over that..

Maybe then the LRM hatred will stop?

Hmmm.. Unlikely.. bullies will always be bullies..

[Goggles Paesano]

Kroete, on 05 July 2017 - 12:55 AM, said:

Lurmageddon?
This kids today! There is a little drizzle and they call it flood ...
If you have been there, you would know that the sky was dark and every little step out of cover was your doom.
Pretty spiraling artemis lrms doing 180 degree turns hitting your torso or cockpit with 100 accuracy ...

Then please also limit the ppcs, gauss and everything the metawhores are using.
LRMs are, after flamers, mgs and narc, the least used weapons ....


LRM spreads, some patches ago lrm 20 were reduced to lrm15 spread and lrm5 were increased to lrm10 spread. (Thats why most lrm users have only around 30-40 accuracy with them).


AMS were buffed the last patches,
more range, modules cheap in the tree and not blocking other weaponmodules, rewards for ams.
AMS mitigates missililedamage, more ams mitigartes more,
you cant expect that 1,5 tons of ams+ammo can counter 20+ tons of lrms.
(4,5 tons of ams+ammo can do that and you can spread it over some mechs).


It seems you have never played a lrm-boat.
Do it and then try to do it good, on all maps against all tiers.

I have one LRM boat(came with a pack I bought). I do play it sometimes.

[Goggles Paesano]

chucklesMuch, on 05 July 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

Hello Goggles,

Guessing you are new to the forums, if not the game. Lurms are regularly, like every other week it seems, popping up on the forums as OP. It's not general consensus though.

Lurms are often considered OP at the lower tiers but not at the higher tiers. Where they are seen as one of the weakest, most situational weapons in the game. (lrm boats can be considered detrimmental to your own team, not always; there some exceptional lurmers and sometimes the stars align). They rely too much on the enemy making a mistake and not having one of the many counters.

Hi and thank you for the civilized response...

I guess that is where the problem lays. Yes, I am a low tier player and relatively new(a couple of months. Most of the people in the forums seem to be higher tier players. The attitude most of them seem to have obviously keeps the new people away.

[Clownwarlord]

Lrms do not need to be nerfed. I can say for certain the only time I have an issue with lrms is when I am trying to master a mech and have yet to get Radar Derp filled out. Some times I do not even fill it out completely but only 3 out of 5 nodes.

[Goggles Paesano]

MrMadguy, on 05 July 2017 - 01:50 AM, said:

I don't know, where this myth comes from. If you play selfish Light, that is immune to LRMs, or don't know, how to use them - then it doesn't mean, they're ineffective. When properly used, they won't let you rise your head out of cover. And when there are lot of LRMs in match - there is always risk of being caught out of cover and lurmed till death in a matter of split second or at least severely damaged.

That seems to be my experience. It seems that once I get caught out in the open by one LRM boat, the rest will work together and soon you are caught in a Lurm storm. The LRM players are doing their job and working together as a team and I can't fault them for it but its not fun on the receiving end to be sure.

[H I A S]

Goggles Paesano, on 04 July 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

I don't know what you did to them in the last patch but this is insane! It now feels like every map is Polar or as I like to call it, Lurmageddon Hell.

Off the top of my head, a few things that can be done...

*Limit the amount of Lurm Boats per team

*Increase the loading time... the more LRMs the longer the loading time... For Example, maybe LRM20s have a 20 sec reload time while LRM 5s have a 5 sec reload time

*If 40 LRMs are shot, not all 40 of them have to hit. It would be logical that there would be a spread, even if the target is standing still.

*Make AMS more effective. Sometimes it doesn't seem like mine is doing anything at all.

Anyway, just my opinion. I now stand ready to receive the wrath of all those Lurm Boat pilots.

l2p

[Goggles Paesano]

vandalhooch, on 05 July 2017 - 02:46 AM, said:

I just went back through the first 30 responses to your original post. The only one that is even slightly like you describe is the one with the gif of the three "explorers" synchronizing their laughter.

All the rest are filled with explanations for why you are mistaken, observations about how this topic is continuously brought up by inexperienced players, or suggestions for how the mechanics can be altered to make LRM's more effective as weapons.

It seems that you view anyone who expresses disagreement with your opinion as attacking you. That's your problem, not this community's.



You just claimed that you received abuse and that you returned fire . . . but some how what you did isn't abuse?



Provide a link to a single post that says that.



You've played just over 2,000 matches and you are still dying to waves of LRM's? How about instead of thinking you're right and everyone else is wrong, you take the time to read through and implement some of the advice offered by pilots who aren't dying to LRM's?



Because this isn't my first Internet rodeo, cowboy.



Well, when you first posted your thread, there were two similar threads on the front page, so . . . not very far at all.



You didn't even do that. LRM's and their affect on the game seems to creep into just about every single thread on this forum.



LRM's. It's Just Getting Ridiculous.

LRM Boat Proliferation Grows

Here's two I found within less than five seconds by using the search function.



1 - It's not us that didn't want to hear about it. It's you who blew up when a couple dozen posters basically copy pasted the same explanations they've used over and over again for years.

2 - Stop trying to feign some sort of concern for how our personal lives are going. You don't know any of us and you are just coming off as a petulant child.



Temper tantrum.

If you didn't see it, you didn't look too hard... I'm not going to go back and waste my time to show you things that you should be able to find on your own.

Maybe I can see the point about repeating something that has all ready been mentioned but you know, if you didn't want to read another thread about LRMs, why did you? You had the opportunity to just pass it by but you didn't. No, you and the other "look at how good I am at this game" bunch saw a pinata and decided to take advantage of it.

I have encountered several great responses in this thread and I do value actual opinions. Its also obvious why many new players avoid the forums as you and the rest of the bunch are playing king of the hill. Great way to keep the game going!

I know what my experience is in the game and the other people I play with. The fact that you tell me I'm wrong doesn't change that.

[Goggles Paesano]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 05 July 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

C'mon....if I get hit by LRMs (excepting from a couple of upper tier guys/teams who actually know how to use them) it's generally because either I have done something wrong in my positioning (my fault, not your skill) , got NARCed or am (along with my teammates) most likely just to busy murdering the rest of your team to break lock....we will be with you shortly....

Yeah, you might have ok damage and be the last to die, but you really gimped your team by "staying fresh" and lrming from the behind your buddies. This stuff works great at lower-tiers...but really nowhere else.

So, I am a low tier player, playing in low tier matches. I don't play the game because I am some super gamer or even a super game wanna be. I play because I have been reading Battletech novels since I was a kid and its fun.

So is the thing I should be taking out of this... This stuff works great at lower-tiers...but really nowhere else and we of the forums don't play in low tier games so therefore the problem doesn't affect us so there is no problem?