184 replies to this topic

[C E Dwyer]

Graf Clunk Von Steiner rubbed his hands and cackled with glee, not noticing the techs looking at him, rolling eyes and making the usual not so subtle hand gestures, that subordinates make when, they they realise their superior officer is a sandwich short of a picnic.

A wheel short of a wagon.
A cent short of a dollar.
A monkey short of a


Well you get the general idea.

What was causing the slightly disturbing monologue, was a line of shiny new Atlases, drawn together by various under handed means, involving masonic hand shakes, intimate favours of a disturbing level, and out right threats of violence.

Not only were these Atlas Atali, Ater...a lot of freaking heavy metal drawn together in one place unusual, but also the equipment they were carrying.

Due to the polaroid of Hanse Davion and the donkey, at the Team Banzi new years party, they were fitted with some very special items.

Not only did each carry a Guardian ECM, but the latest experimental armour, stolen from the Capellan Confederation, Stealth Armour.

Come my minions screamed, Graf Clunk, prepare the drop pods, the Steiner Scout Company has become reality.

For centuries they have mocked us but now..

NOW we will show those Dragon fools whom the REAL NINJA ARE !!!!!

Edited by Cathy, 10 July 2017 - 02:01 AM.

[Koniving]

MovinTarget, on 09 July 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

Example: Has there ever been a battle in a BT campaign, book, or other lore authorized resource that would allow for the possibility to have half your allotment of mechs be Atlases? In Faction Play, this is not only feasible, its a reality when you have an IS 12-man... You can each drop 2 100 tonners and have 65 tons left for 2 other mechs. If I'm not mistaken that scenario would be incredibly unrealistic due to the scarcity of assaults, let alone Atlases...

This specific scenario does have a chance of existing:
If a battle were to take place on Quentin post 3040 and closer to 3050, during production of a large order of Atlases or one of the many other assault mechs that Independence Weaponry produces and if the attack happened just prior to the order being completed / prepped for shipping, you would then have a large force of brand new Atlas Ks fresh off the assembly line. Actual combat effectiveness would probably be moot, however, unless the Dracs stalled for enough time to load ammunition into each Atlas K, a process that takes roughly 10 to 30 minutes per mech, per ammo type, depending on the method used.

So it really is a very unrealistic scenario. Still... It's a shame that the Atlas K doesn't get the respect it deserves here. In a K versus D or the Atlas D-DC which is basically a D with an added cockpit and command center at the expense of fewer weapons....The range advantage an Atlas K has, as well as the front loaded damage advantage an Atlas K has, blatantly allows it to outclass an Atlas D lore-wise.

Spoiler

• The Atlas K's ER large lasers re "4 times more powerful" than the Atlas D's medium lasers (how fluff comes up with 8 damage, 12 heat being "almost" 4 times more powerful than 5 damage, 3 heat is beyond comprehension if you consider tabletop; but if you consider lore it takes an Atlas D's lasers 4 shots to make what amounts to its damage class [5 damage at 1.25 damage per shot]. The Atlas K's ER Large Laser only needs to fire twice to get its rating [8 damage at 4 damage per shot]. Now that fluff statement from TRO 3050 Revised makes a lot more sense.
  
• Then you have the 100mm Deathgiver AC/20, which if a Marauder's GM Whirlwind/5 at 120mm is 3 shots to get 5 damage and the King Crab's 120mm Deathgiver does bursts of 3 shots and has 12 shots per cassette (or 'round'), one can assume that perhaps 16 shots will net 20 damage... since other known comparisons of 100mm tend to come out to between 14 and 20 shots for 20 damage, 16 sounds like a very fair estimation. Then you have the Deathgiver's issue that in TRO 3025, it lacks any cooling jacket (meaning +2 heat per damage rating), it's getting 20 damage at 9 heat instead of 7. Sure it has a maximum range of approximately 2,000 meters but the accurate range where one could hope to land all the shots into one tight grouping is 270 meters. This compared to the Gauss Rifle which nets 15 damage in a single shot, with a maximum range of 13,740 meters, though the expected accurate range with undue difficulty is 660 meters.)
  
• The Atlas D has a 5 tube hip-mounted LRM that fires 5 missiles every 2.5 seconds.
  
• The Atlas K has two vertical strips of ten tubes one on each side of the center torso (though the guts and such for the launcher and its feeding mechanism are on the left torso). Granted it only fires once every 10 seconds, these are all at once.
  
• What the K doesn't have is the D's left-breast mounted SRM-6 launcher. But a K would never let the D get that close.

The latest technology of the year 3050+ went into the Atlas K. The D-DC is a design that hadn't been touched or upgraded since prior to 3025... So, we know where that ECM should have gone.
Ah well.

Would love to see a Battletech Sim that isn't based on Mechwarrior 4, some day.

Edited by Koniving, 10 July 2017 - 02:11 AM.

[Knighthawk26]

Wintersdark, on 05 July 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

Wait, so you're saying that MRM's won't be as effective in a brawl, and instead will serve only as... medium range missiles? And that... wait, short range missiles may be a superior choice for a pure brawling build?
Madness!

Hell, if you get MRM's that stream fire in a static direction like they do currently (which is, incidentally, obviously a bug), then I want my cUAC20 to do it too. Start firing, then twist away instantly, full damage done.

If MRM's where supposed to function this way, they wouldn't stream fire. Missiles launching sideways is ridiculous; no other weapon in the game works that way.


And unintentional friendly fire? Don't go there; that's beneath you. Burst/beam weapons firing where they are pointed is how *everything* not front loaded works. That's a total non-argument.

This is the best answer on this issue, period. Thanks, Wintersdark! PGI got the fix right on this one guys, let's give them credit for this at least.

[Dee Eight]

Koniving, on 10 July 2017 - 01:08 AM, said:

Edit: Quick side note (the megajoules is quickly corrected later to be megawatts and the number from "5" to 50, due to a typo.

Being written by americans... it didn't surprise me that they didn't understand that watts and joules were the essentially the same thing. 1 joule = 1 watt of power for 1 second and conversely 1 watt = 1 joule per second. So a 50MW laser expending all its energy in 1 second is the same as a 50MJ laser doing the same thing. This was after all the same generation of minds that would later lead to a NASA probe not merely missing its orbital insertion with Mars, but actually smacking straight into the upper atmosphere of the planet where it promptly disintegrated.

Edited by Dee Eight, 10 July 2017 - 03:40 AM.

[MovinTarget]

Genesis23, on 10 July 2017 - 12:02 AM, said:

language barrier is inexistant. never had problems communicating in a game thats only available in english anyway.

NA timezone/NA Server player, I presume...

You've never had the pleasure of getting cursed out in Russian apparently.

Heck, come drop with IDI and see how you do cutting through all of our many accents... ...and we are predominantly engrish-speaking! Our mad Scottsman alone...

No. The language barrier is real and you can't assume everyone who plays speaks/reads engrish.

Perhaps, people can get better at communicating, but I see stealth armor likely being used in premades and *maybe* scouting where if you can identify friend/foe by tech and their are few enough players to not worry about confusion so much.

That is, if anyone finds it worth carrying at all...

Edited by MovinTarget, 10 July 2017 - 04:45 AM.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Cathy, on 10 July 2017 - 01:59 AM, said:

Graf Clunk Von Steiner rubbed his hands and cackled with glee, not noticing the techs looking at him, rolling eyes and making the usual not so subtle hand gestures, that subordinates make when, they they realise their superior officer is a sandwich short of a picnic.

A wheel short of a wagon.
A cent short of a dollar.
A monkey short of a


Well you get the general idea.

What was causing the slightly disturbing monologue, was a line of shiny new Atlases, drawn together by various under handed means, involving masonic hand shakes, intimate favours of a disturbing level, and out right threats of violence.

Not only were these Atlas Atali, Ater...a lot of freaking heavy metal drawn together in one place unusual, but also the equipment they were carrying.

Due to the polaroid of Hanse Davion and the donkey, at the Team Banzi new years party, they were fitted with some very special items.

Not only did each carry a Guardian ECM, but the latest experimental armour, stolen from the Capellan Confederation, Stealth Armour.

Come my minions screamed, Graf Clunk, prepare the drop pods, the Steiner Scout Company has become reality.

For centuries they have mocked us but now..

NOW we will show those Dragon fools whom the REAL NINJA ARE !!!!!

Haha, which novel is this from? I've got almost all the original Battletech Novels, but I haven't read that one...

[Koniving]

Dee Eight, on 10 July 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

Being written by americans... it didn't surprise me that they didn't understand that watts and joules were the essentially the same thing. 1 joule = 1 watt of power for 1 second and conversely 1 watt = 1 joule per second. So a 50MW laser expending all its energy in 1 second is the same as a 50MJ laser doing the same thing. This was after all the same generation of minds that would later lead to a NASA probe not merely missing its orbital insertion with Mars, but actually smacking straight into the upper atmosphere of the planet where it promptly disintegrated.

Huh. Went to try to explain the difference but then had conflicting results from different calculators.

So William H Keith Junior (the first Battletech author) had it right. He did define it as millions of joules per second. But for some reason on some calculators megajoules end up as kilowatts instead of megawatts, hence why even I fell in line with the correction. Oh internet, you are so awesomely ****** up.

Edit: Coming back to it, I remember why they made the correction now. Because Megajoules is per second, while the power ratings they were using were 1 to 2 tenths of a second at 5 megawatts, 50 megawatts, 1 to 3 megawatts, etc. at tenths of a second.

Heh.

Side note: (Other random lore stuff. For example, did you know there are Two kinds of Catapults?)

Spoiler

The actual size of the Shadowhawk 2D versus MWO's original size.
MWO's current size is currently 15 meters, just shy of what it was then.
The actual height of the Shadowhawk 2D is between 9 and 10 meters. Note that the 55 tonner also has the armor of a light mech that is barely above 4 tons, akin tot he Locust.


Next to it, is a 60 ton modern tank.

Edit, between 2750 and 3039, Shadow Hawks barely change from the 2nd generation, though there's a third generation that grows a little bit. The 4th gen is not canonically described, but the 5th gen which starts post 3039 was made significantly larger in order to house double heatsinks, XL engine, and more armor, making it closer to normal size for 55 tonners. Though this said, here's a Wolverine.


Interesting, isn't it?
Of course, the tallest mech up until 3065 is 14.4 meters, the Executioner.
Battledroids and City Tech, both define Mechs as being "12 to 14 meters" before that got expanded...

Huh...
Hm...

Also worth noting, you can tell that the Hunchback and the Wyvern are small, because on each of these two 'Mechs, they have their ammunition stored on an externally mounted storage unit. The Hunchback's infamous 'drum' holds the HBK's ammunition. For the 4SP's only canonical art, this drum is moved from the left torso to the center torso -- which is where the ammo was moved to after fitting the second missile launcher in the left torso. Meanwhile the Wyvern's ammo is 'technically' mounted on the side torsos, the protrusion on its back spreads across the center, left and right torsos and distributes SRMs into the right torso to feed the SRM-6 and distributes LRMs through the left torso and around the engine in order to feed the center torso LRM-10. (There's also a huge emphasis on how the heat from the engine often shuts down the LRM launcher, and overriding the LRM launcher's shutdown can result in an explosion. It's also worth noting that Mechs do not override the Engine shutdown. This cannot be done. What mechs override is the weapons being disabled or 'shut down' in order to prevent damage to the weapon systems, which usually happens at 80% of 30 Mech heat if that heat is sustained for a length of time. IS pilots frequently override this in order to keep in the fight, as they usually have to ride hot or die. Clan pilots however do not normally participate in this practice.)

Another random note: Want to know the real reason this concept art is around when most concept art doesn't include 'corrections' especially on any newer mechs?
It's Alex the artist letting us know, he knew that mechs aren't as rediculously huge as some think, he tried for that, and PGI had other ideas.

After all, Catapults are actually not much bigger than Jenners because 1) Jenners are kinda tall and 2) Stunt-leg version Catapults are around 8 to 9 meters, while their Stilt-Leg versions are between 11 and 12 meters.
Stunt-leg. Ideal for smaller urban environments, open terrain, any place with low to no cover.

Stilt-leg. Ideal for mountainous regions, ravines, places with high cover.

Adorable, ideal for just having some awesomesauce.


Rawr. Now that's just hot.

Sorry to edit again: But Jordan Weissman (FASA co/owner back in the hayday and Battletech creator, also the guy behind Battletech the PC game... ensured we got this version of MWO's Catapult within their art and their proportions. Notice the ladder rungs, and the pilot's size to the mech? Fits this Catapult pretty close to the "Stunt" leg design of the Catapult.)

(And why are MWO's weapon barrels so tiny? They tried to scale some of them to the lore stated diameters. But if your mech is about 25% to 45% larger than the canon mech... the barrel will be tiny. The immense size of the Timber Wolf is why it doesn't 'run' at top speed; if it was 12.6 meters like it is supposed to be, it would have to run to achieve 81 or the lore proper 86 kph).

(Swear I'm done adding stuff to it. For now.)

Edited by Koniving, 11 July 2017 - 08:37 AM.

[Wintersdark]

MovinTarget, on 10 July 2017 - 03:50 AM, said:

That is, if anyone finds it worth carrying at all...

Yep.

Everyone likes to build these little narratives of how a battle could go in their head,but once subjected to the harsh light of day, this is what really matters. "Blending in" with the opfor is of minimal value - even if you're in a perfect world where your pugmates utilize this mythical "communication" power to determine they shouldn't put an AC20 shell into your rear CT, you'd need to assume the OpFor will do the same.

Being dorito-free has some value, but not a whole heck of a lot. Outside of ignoring LRM's (which are easier to counter just by using a rock, the ECM you already have, radar derp, AMS, etc) any non potato player is still going to see you. It may mean you take less damage in a furball when people are relying on targeting boxes to see through cockpit shake, but that'd be at the expense of no heat dissipation.

It's not worthless, but it's expensive and of limited value given you already have ECM.

So... Yeah. While the mental narrative of Being A Spy, sneaking in amounts the enemy, it's a fairy tale that's almost never going to work but is frequently going to get you uselessly dead. So now we have another noobtrap item, getting yourself killed if a teammate doesn't do it for you, either way hurting your team instead of helping it.

Blah.

On the other hand, stealth amour that DOESNT block friendly IFF only loses the (remote) possibility of sneaking alongside enemies "in plain view" (as anything with no IFF is consider hostile) but on the other hand you do still gain protection by people shooting at targeting boxes first, and the ability to be only seen by the one guy who spots you instead of the whole enemy team. This, IMHO, is much better. You don't gain quite as much, but you don't have friendlies killing you (and your friendlies don't unnecessarily have to suffer temp bans for TKing and what have you.

[MovinTarget]

Wintersdark, on 10 July 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

Yep.

Everyone likes to build these little narratives of how a battle could go in their head,but once subjected to the harsh light of day, this is what really matters. "Blending in" with the opfor is of minimal value - even if you're in a perfect world where your pugmates utilize this mythical "communication" power to determine they shouldn't put an AC20 shell into your rear CT, you'd need to assume the OpFor will do the same.

Being dorito-free has some value, but not a whole heck of a lot. Outside of ignoring LRM's (which are easier to counter just by using a rock, the ECM you already have, radar derp, AMS, etc) any non potato player is still going to see you. It may mean you take less damage in a furball when people are relying on targeting boxes to see through cockpit shake, but that'd be at the expense of no heat dissipation.

It's not worthless, but it's expensive and of limited value given you already have ECM.

So... Yeah. While the mental narrative of Being A Spy, sneaking in amounts the enemy, it's a fairy tale that's almost never going to work but is frequently going to get you uselessly dead. So now we have another noobtrap item, getting yourself killed if a teammate doesn't do it for you, either way hurting your team instead of helping it.

Blah.

On the other hand, stealth amour that DOESNT block friendly IFF only loses the (remote) possibility of sneaking alongside enemies "in plain view" (as anything with no IFF is consider hostile) but on the other hand you do still gain protection by people shooting at targeting boxes first, and the ability to be only seen by the one guy who spots you instead of the whole enemy team. This, IMHO, is much better. You don't gain quite as much, but you don't have friendlies killing you (and your friendlies don't unnecessarily have to suffer temp bans for TKing and what have you.

While I COMPLETELY agree with you, for some reason this pops into my head:



Now. Lets talk compromise.

*IF* they made the behavior somewhat akin to UAVs, *THEN* it could be a bit more servicable...

By this I mean:

1) No IFF/blue dorito under normal circumstances

2) If you let your reticle pass over it, you get the Blue Dorito (for a friendly) and no intel feedback otherwise.

Could it lead to FF still? Yes, *but* as people have (mostly) learned how not to shoot their team's UAVs, *possibly* they could learn to check fire before pulling the trigger here as well.

*THEN* you could have infiltration where the skilled (and perhaps a little paranoid) will be able to sniff you out, but the clueless will learn the hard way to reticle-check supposed teammate.

Even this is a stretch but it seems slightly more agreeable as a compromise to me...

Edited by MovinTarget, 10 July 2017 - 08:27 AM.

[WeekendWarrior]

Dee Eight, on 10 July 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

This was after all the same generation of minds that would later lead to a NASA probe not merely missing its orbital insertion with Mars, but actually smacking straight into the upper atmosphere of the planet where it promptly disintegrated.

Nah, that was just because they are one of the three or so countries that still use the imperial system...

[MovinTarget]

Dee Eight, on 10 July 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

Being written by americans... This was after all the same generation of minds that would later lead to a NASA probe not merely missing its orbital insertion with Mars, but actually smacking straight into the upper atmosphere of the planet where it promptly disintegrated.

Right, because we're all the same. Nice bias there...

Hey everybody, you don't have to dig on the just US anymore, seems like there are people with superiority complexes willing to simplify entire generations up north too.


To me that's like saying everything that comes out of Canada sounds like Justin Beiber. I don't believe it, but if you really want to play the "Lets make generalizations" game...

Edited by MovinTarget, 10 July 2017 - 11:15 AM.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Wintersdark, on 10 July 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

Yep.

Everyone likes to build these little narratives of how a battle could go in their head,but once subjected to the harsh light of day, this is what really matters. "Blending in" with the opfor is of minimal value - even if you're in a perfect world where your pugmates utilize this mythical "communication" power to determine they shouldn't put an AC20 shell into your rear CT, you'd need to assume the OpFor will do the same.

Being dorito-free has some value, but not a whole heck of a lot. Outside of ignoring LRM's (which are easier to counter just by using a rock, the ECM you already have, radar derp, AMS, etc) any non potato player is still going to see you. It may mean you take less damage in a furball when people are relying on targeting boxes to see through cockpit shake, but that'd be at the expense of no heat dissipation.

It's not worthless, but it's expensive and of limited value given you already have ECM.

So... Yeah. While the mental narrative of Being A Spy, sneaking in amounts the enemy, it's a fairy tale that's almost never going to work but is frequently going to get you uselessly dead. So now we have another noobtrap item, getting yourself killed if a teammate doesn't do it for you, either way hurting your team instead of helping it.

Blah.

On the other hand, stealth amour that DOESNT block friendly IFF only loses the (remote) possibility of sneaking alongside enemies "in plain view" (as anything with no IFF is consider hostile) but on the other hand you do still gain protection by people shooting at targeting boxes first, and the ability to be only seen by the one guy who spots you instead of the whole enemy team. This, IMHO, is much better. You don't gain quite as much, but you don't have friendlies killing you (and your friendlies don't unnecessarily have to suffer temp bans for TKing and what have you.

I gotta say though... I'm pretty good at doing this without ECM or Stealth... in purely pug matches at least... Nothing I love more than slipping behind an enemy team with my 6 SRM6 Jenner IIC and one-shot killing their entire Assault lance before someone figures out what's happening XD My Viper is pretty good at it too... I've probably got about a 65% success rate with it though. Sometimes you just find someone on the enemy team who's facing the wrong way, or who is trying to do the same thing you are... I don't think Stealth Armor will help me in my quest to eat back armor, as there aren't any fast, hard-hitting mechs that also have ECM right now that I could take advantage of it with... This doesn't work at all in group queue, though. You might get one, but an even slightly cohesive team will stop you from getting another.

Making it require a "Q" check for both sides similar to MovinTarget's reference to a UAV seems like a good idea to me... But, I never played with the Stealth Armor while the PTS was up, so I can't offer much insight into that...

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 10 July 2017 - 05:29 PM.

[Tordin]

A bit off topic maybe, but there will be a countdown tomorrow/ later today, wont it?

[Wintersdark]

Twilight Fenrir, on 10 July 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

I gotta say though... I'm pretty good at doing this without ECM or Stealth... in purely pug matches at least... Nothing I love more than slipping behind an enemy team with my 6 SRM6 Jenner IIC and one-shot killing their entire Assault lance before someone figures out what's happening XD My Viper is pretty good at it too... I've probably got about a 65% success rate with it though. Sometimes you just find someone on the enemy team who's facing the wrong way, or who is trying to do the same thing you are... I don't think Stealth Armor will help me in my quest to eat back armor, as there aren't any fast, hard-hitting mechs that also have ECM right now that I could take advantage of it with... This doesn't work at all in group queue, though. You might get one, but an even slightly cohesive team will stop you from getting another.

Making it require a "Q" check for both sides similar to MovinTarget's reference to a UAV seems like a good idea to me... But, I never played with the Stealth Armor while the PTS was up, so I can't offer much insight into that...

You misunderstand.

I'm not talking about sneaking around behind the opfor and backstabbing. The argument people make for stealth armor blocking friendly IFF is that when it's blocked, you can't tell if a stealth armored mech is friend or for. Thus, you can theoretically"blend in", an imposter.

This is wholly different t from flanking/backstabbing, they're totally unrelated things.

What I'm saying is that this imposter approach sounds cool in theory, in those little mental narratives. But in practice, our battles are too short, and the consequences (friendly fire, allies being punished doubly for your choices, etc as has been discussed) are too steep.

Wereas if stealth armor still makes you undetectable to enemy radar, BUT you show up for friendlies, you can't be an imposter anymore (the opfor, if actually eyeballing you, will likely notice your lack of a blue dorito) but other functionality remains. However, your team is less likely to kill you (and take financial penalties and potentially temp bans for teamkills) so gameplay as a whole improves.

But, people like to imagine themselves blending in alongside the enemies Mechs, acting all nonchalant, passing themselves off as one of the red team until just the right moment when they start backstabbing when the teams engage. It's seductive, for sure, and sounds like tons of fun. But it's no better realistically than simply flanking/backstabbing, and it comes at a huge cost not just to the user but his whole team

[MovinTarget]

Wintersdark, on 10 July 2017 - 05:55 PM, said:

...More rational and reasonable content...

REALITY OP, PLZ NERF!!!!

[Grus]

J0anna, on 05 July 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

•MRM fire will properly track the targeting reticle.

Why such a big nerf to MRM's? They didn't seem too powerful when tested. Why was it necessary to nerf them this much before release?

no more fire and twist for you guys

But that means, if you do it right, fire around a slight bend?

[Frost Lord]

Kaptain, on 05 July 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

Hopefully the "False empty" UI mech lab bug is fixed as well as the Stealth armor turns Endo Steel Structure non dynamic/fixed in place bug as well. Those are pretty glaring and annoying UI bugs.

No mention of LGR and other new weapons not benefiting from skill tree ammo nodes.

Happy to hear racs are getting ghost heat fixed.

I would suggest:
HPPC 15@15
LBX20 and HGR slot reduction (or crit split and ammo changing mechanics)
Rocket Launchers need serious work to fill their intended role.
UAC20s probably need ghost heat.

Overall pretty happy PGI. I would have liked to seen a round 3 for sure and taking the servers down feels a bit premature.

they wont change the slots or Tonnage of items.

[MovinTarget]

Grus, on 11 July 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

no more fire and twist for you guys

But that means, if you do it right, fire around a slight bend?

I don't think you'll be able to "hook" MRMs like you can LRMs. I think the point was to have them shooting forward based on where you are facing at the moment them leave the tube... so if you are twisting as you fire they will stream out like from a garden sprinkler as opposed to "hooking" back to the point you focused at the time of firing. They are dumbfire after all...

[Mycroft000]

And now all I can see is James McAvoy as a Mechwarrior.

[GColaSalesman]

I love it all, just please make heavy lasers a different color than regular lasers and I'll be content. It would be so nice to finally see some purple heavy-large beams of overclocked light erupting through the sky