62 replies to this topic

[panzer1b]

Personally id love to see heatsinks (outside of engine), JJs, and other things liek masc or cap or whatnot unlocked on all omnis. There are too many clan mechs right now that are subpar simply because they have so much locked stuff that its both hurting the mech and severely limiting the sort of loadouts they can use.

Personally the biggest annoyance is the locked JJs, why do so many clan mechs have 5-6 locked JJs that cannot be removed, lore or not, forcing us to have that much tonnage eaten by something thats only useful for very specific playstyles that teh mech might not even support properly isnt fun and often renders the mechs completely non competitive. Take the summoner, the 5 JJs are useful for poptarting PPC/gauss only, and if i want to say run a brawler or uac boat or some other build, i could remove 3-4 of them and save myself some much needed tonnage. Another good example is the shadowcat, id gladly dump 4 of the JJs and get some more build options or 2 heatsinks to help fix that thing's insane heat issues with any energy loadouts (or open the door to some unorthodox loadouts like gauss+6 MGs which is currently worthless due to ammo limitations that could be fixed by the extra tonnage from JJs). If it becomes a problem for a particular chassis then the JJs can always be relocked, but thusfar almost all of the JJ locked mechs are at a disadvantage in both customizeability and usefulness on the battlefield.

That said, i think the engine should be hard locked, and things like endo/ferro should also remain locked for the sake of balance and variety. Many mechs need to have unoptimized armor to keep them balanced, the biggest of which i think is the HBR which would go from a decent mech to blatantly OP if it got endo/ferro (and the ebon would become completely pointless when the HBR has better hardpoints and better shielding ability with its hitboxes). I know ECM isnt that OP or anything especially at higher levels of play, but its a huge asset to teh team and the HBR can still carry very high DPS and alfa strike potential with the correct loadout (1 LPL and 5 ERML or GAUSS+5 ERML gives you perfectly serviceable alfa strikle with alot of DPS behind it).

I know its unlikely to happen, but i really think itd be a good idea to remove most or all of the locked components, since right now the IICs are arguably better then the vast majority of omnis anyways and those select few that are strong can either have quirks removed or keep some of the equipment locked. Make omnis unique with locked engine ratings and artmor type or whatnot, but dont force equipment on people that dont want it especially with omnis nolonger being all that powerful...

Edited by panzer1b, 06 July 2017 - 04:24 PM.

[Valhallan]

J0anna, on 06 July 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

Look I understand the need for balance, locked ferro/endo/engine/MASC and the first 10 HS (and that agrees w/BT construction rules)- sure, but JJ's should never be locked, nor should CAP, any weapon, or non-engine HS (above the first 10) they are not locked as per the BT master rules. That should apply for both clan and IS omnimechs.

Indeed they're not, the problem however is the lore on the chassis end, the master rules make clear that each design has "fixed features" that cannot be changed. This is the same thing as i said about the JJ's, the pod mounted vers are indeed attachable and removable, the problem is that the fixed ones are well "fixed features". Can't remove those per the rules, an easy spot is the adder's flamer which pgi broke rules for already, technically that should have been locked.

Look to be clear, since we don't have logistics anyway and i really don't expect that to ever get added in anymore, and we're already so far beyond the base ruleset, i'm actually ok with pgi smashing some rules with the hammer in the name of "balance", I just dislike when people use lore badly for their agenda (like those saying that following the base construction rules means we should follow the additional logistical rules too for IS construction, those are separate rule areas). If you want to break the rules, then do what the adder people did and just say it. Kind of like how the ones advocating for ISxL not being deathtraps and STD's being made more useful acknowledge that those modifications aren't lore and do break base rules. OFC you're gonna have to go against pgi's mechpack agenda with no backing, goodluck with that .

Quirks btw can make any chassis useable it just depends on how much you wanna stuff on it (see the brief moment IS had the advantage over clans with ppc god thuds).

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeah I think I prefer the idea of more omnipod options rather than more customisability to each omnipoint, which would include options without JJs etc, just not for all hardpoint potentials. For the love of god just don't hide more behind MC paywalls

[Brain Cancer]

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because you know in lore, you couldn't actually modify ANYTHING on an IS battlemech without sending it to the factory for an extended period for modifications

Absurdly untrue. Modifications range from something you can do in a field gantry to factory disassembly/reassembly jobs.

It's one of those perks of ferro-fibrous vs. endosteel in TT, if you're doing a campaign. FFA is a field refit job, but endosteel takes a factory replacement.

I'll also say that the reason locked JJ's tick so many people off is because PGI turned jump jets into trash.

We literally don't get decent jump jets because apparently, PGI cannot think of any other ways to nerf poptarting.

[ShadeofHades]

Valhallan, on 07 July 2017 - 12:46 AM, said:

Indeed they're not, the problem however is the lore on the chassis end, the master rules make clear that each design has "fixed features" that cannot be changed. This is the same thing as i said about the JJ's, the pod mounted vers are indeed attachable and removable, the problem is that the fixed ones are well "fixed features". Can't remove those per the rules, an easy spot is the adder's flamer which pgi broke rules for already, technically that should have been locked.

Look to be clear, since we don't have logistics anyway and i really don't expect that to ever get added in anymore, and we're already so far beyond the base ruleset, i'm actually ok with pgi smashing some rules with the hammer in the name of "balance", I just dislike when people use lore badly for their agenda (like those saying that following the base construction rules means we should follow the additional logistical rules too for IS construction, those are separate rule areas). If you want to break the rules, then do what the adder people did and just say it. Kind of like how the ones advocating for ISxL not being deathtraps and STD's being made more useful acknowledge that those modifications aren't lore and do break base rules. OFC you're gonna have to go against pgi's mechpack agenda with no backing, goodluck with that .

Quirks btw can make any chassis useable it just depends on how much you wanna stuff on it (see the brief moment IS had the advantage over clans with ppc god thuds).

Minor point. It's not breaking the rules to remove those 'fixed' pieces of hardware - the Clan omni pilots are (and have been) asking for brief access to the same sorts of facilities that the IS pilots have constantly, where those sorts of changes can be made. Adder pilots just apparently managed to sneak in some time there before anyone else who plays Clan.

Edited by ShadeofHades, 07 July 2017 - 06:00 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Brain Cancer, on 07 July 2017 - 03:39 AM, said:

Absurdly untrue. Modifications range from something you can do in a field gantry to factory disassembly/reassembly jobs.

It's one of those perks of ferro-fibrous vs. endosteel in TT, if you're doing a campaign. FFA is a field refit job, but endosteel takes a factory replacement.

I'll also say that the reason locked JJ's tick so many people off is because PGI turned jump jets into trash.

We literally don't get decent jump jets because apparently, PGI cannot think of any other ways to nerf poptarting.

No, people don't like them because they usually have more than necessary to get a decent jump, adding unnecessary weight. The slot usage also sometimes prevents certain builds.

[Monkey Lover]

Andi Nagasia, on 06 July 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

well its just your tone, in the Quote,


seemed that, of Assuming that Any Buff to Clan no matter to which mech, or however small, is bad,


,

Not assuming it would be bad to buff any mech until new hard points and new tech hits.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

No, people don't like them because they usually have more than necessary to get a decent jump, adding unnecessary weight. The slot usage also sometimes prevents certain builds.

You should be leaping like a gazelle with a full brace of jets. Virtually nothing past lights even comes close to that now. "Decent" usually isn't happening.

Of course, PGI also bollixed up jump jets in general.

[Y E O N N E]

Brain Cancer, on 07 July 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

You should be leaping like a gazelle with a full brace of jets. Virtually nothing past lights even comes close to that now. "Decent" usually isn't happening.

Of course, PGI also bollixed up jump jets in general.

Let me clarify that when I say decent, I mean useful. 3 tons of JJs on a 75 ton 'Mech is adequate to poptart and two is adequate for pure mobility reasons. Reduce count by 1 for mediums and Lights.

[Cy Mitchell]

Tarogato, on 06 July 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

In general, no. Hardlocked DHS, JJ, engine, structure, and ferro should all stay. That's how omni's work.


But I can stand to make some exceptions to the locked rule for weapons and useless equipment:

- cAP on the Mist Lynx
- Flamer on the Adder
- SHS and TAG on the Owens
- BAP on the Men Shen
- ML on the Avatar
- Flamer on the Balius
- Flamer on the Firestarter (omni)

In general, I agree with this. However, as an alternative, I could see an additional variant added for some omni-mechs that lacked the offending equipment. For example, a Nova with no jumpjets as standard equipment or a Huntsman with no jumpjets and a larger engine. That way, the omni-pods for those variants could be linked with different quirks or armor values to off-set possible gains and to maintain balance. We already have a little of this with the KFX where one variant has JJ but others do not which allows you to take less JJ to allow for more weapons or equipment by using just one of those pods.

Omni-mechs are supposed to be flexible but in MWO, a lot of the time, the omnis are at a disadvantage because of locked equipment and engines. Adding a few variants to increase that flexibility would not be bad. However, unlocking a bunch of equipment could be. Many of the balance problems in MWO can be traced directly to the freedom to customize that has been given to the players by the MechLab. It allows Frankenstein variants to be created that never would exist in BattleTech or previous MechWarrior titles. While the MechLab is one of the best things about MWO it can also be one of the worse for balanced gameplay.

Too much freedom can be a bad thing. Some freedom for additional customization with restrictions might help some chassis. For those chassis, add a variant that has the desired attributes (or lack of) and balance it with other attributes based on that difference.

Edited by Rampage, 07 July 2017 - 08:11 AM.

[Valhallan]

ShadeofHades, on 07 July 2017 - 05:58 AM, said:

Minor point. It's not breaking the rules to remove those 'fixed' pieces of hardware - the Clan omni pilots are (and have been) asking for brief access to the same sorts of facilities that the IS pilots have constantly, where those sorts of changes can be made. Adder pilots just apparently managed to sneak in some time there before anyone else who plays Clan.

It breaks Omni construction rules 100% the rule sets are pretty clear, Even in a factory setting removing fixed equipment is 100% illegal for omnis. As i mentioned previously I am in favor of the actual LEGAL way to do it (though as i mentioned also, i don't really expect to see it happening just like ammo switching is still mythical), which is if you keep 8/8 stock pods you can "ruin" your omnimech by turning it into a battlemech and letting you tinker as you wish. That is the actual legal way that omnimech's can remove fixed equipment, becoming a battlemech and losing omni capability.

[Andi Nagasia]

Monkey Lover, on 07 July 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

Not assuming it would be bad to buff any mech until new hard points and new tech hits.

agreed, not saying these changes should be done next patch,
just saying such should be examined, when IS OmniMechs are coming out,

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

If omnis are going to get buffed, I'd rather see them able to swap through omnipod presets at the ready screen.

[Andi Nagasia]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 07 July 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

If omnis are going to get buffed, I'd rather see them able to swap through omnipod presets at the ready screen.

i see this helping the better OmniMechs more so than lesser ones,
as lesser OmniMechs have less build options and as such less viable builds,

for instance Compare NVA to the SCR,
the NVA has 2-3 Viable Builds (ERSLs) (SPLs) or (ERPPC)
the SCR has 5-7+ Viable Builds (Sreaks)(SRMs+SPLs)(LPLs+ERMLs)(LPLs+ERSLs)(AC20+ERSLs) ect,

yes this would help All OmniMechs, but it would help already good ones much more,

now when Comparing if PGI unlocked Endo or DHSs for OmniMechs,
the NVA could gain a huge boon to its non Energy lineup, 6.5more tons(22.5FreeTons total)(+Endo -4DHSs)
this would allow a NVA to take a Single Heavy Ballistic and backup lasers more effectively,
where as this Change would not in any way increase the Viability of the SCR,

[Coolant]

Night Thastus, on 06 July 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

(I find it funny he was the one to make this call, considering he's head of the company and not of balance/game design. How is it his call, again?

He is the head of the company, which means it is his call cause 'in crimen absolutum dominium'

Quote

Doesn't anyone else from PGI get input or get to debate or consider the topic?)

a priori fallacy - deductive reasoning from a general principle not supported by fact

Quote

I'm really, really tired of that argument.

argumentum ad infinitum fallacy - signifies that it has been discussed extensively until nobody cares to discuss it anymore

Just because you are tired of it doesn't make your position right, justifiable or solid.

[Baulven]

I would like to point out that if you are using lore arguments in this thread but complain when people bring up the same arguments in IS threads you baffle the mind.

That being said this is no longer an issues. Most weight classes have (or will have) a IIC mech that has high mounts and will make this entire argument pointless. Letting more diversity into omnimech builds won't hurt anything at this point, since battlemechs have already broken that mold.

[Baulven]

Also a key note most omnimech that are good already won the mech construction lottery. Letting those without would increase diversity but it wouldn't buff the top performers more.

[Andi Nagasia]

Baulven, on 07 July 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

I would like to point out that if you are using lore arguments in this thread but complain when people bring up the same arguments in IS threads you baffle the mind.

That being said this is no longer an issues. Most weight classes have (or will have) a IIC mech that has high mounts and will make this entire argument pointless. Letting more diversity into omnimech builds won't hurt anything at this point, since battlemechs have already broken that mold.

Baulven, on 07 July 2017 - 03:53 PM, said:

Also a key note most omnimech that are good already won the mech construction lottery. Letting those without would increase diversity but it wouldn't buff the top performers more.

many feel that Any Buff to OmniMechs is a bad thing as it means Buffing Clan,
(as their are no IS OmniMechs, their for all OmniMechs Change = Only Clan Buff)

much like allowing the removal of the SHCs MASC(+2Tons) or the MLX CAP(+1Ton)
allowing the removal of non Engine DHSs, NVA(+4Tons), WHK(+7Tons), EXE(+1Ton), & DWF(+3Tons)
to these Changes people usually say that those mechs can then take larger weapons,

these Changes would allow for SHCs or NVAs to take Large Ballistics with adequate ammo,
where as the WHK Change would allow for ammo and Equipment to be placed in the LT,
the EXE & DWF gain some tonnage be lets face it they wont change much,

[The6thMessenger]

Andi Nagasia, on 06 July 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

then perhaps thats a Rule that needs to Change,

the Avatar is a 70Ton IS OmniMech, Equiped with an XL-280,
what if OmniMechs Could Change their Engine Type? this would allow many more options,
being able to Equip a LFE280 would lose it 4Tons, but allow it much more Survivability,

Now that i think about it, Rakasha would have immense problems with it's hard-locked IS XL375. It would be a massive boon if it could at least down-grade to LFE.

[SMDMadCow]

The6thMessenger, on 07 July 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

Now that i think about it, Rakasha would have immense problems with it's hard-locked IS XL375. It would be a massive boon if it could at least down-grade to LFE.

The Rakshasa isn't an omni.