62 replies to this topic

[Night Thastus]

EDIT: Some highlights of this thread, if you were interested:

• Derailing the entire topic and discussing lore instead (Lore is nice, but it's not MWO. We need to consider in-game balance, not lore)
  
• Suggesting some 'Mechs affected might become OP, without considering we can tone down the quirks or otherwise (like the Nova)
  
• Suggesting that the awful nature of many of these 'Mechs like the Lynx is just a "part of their character" or similar (pointless argument that nets us nothing towards balance)
  
• People arguing we should get Endo/ferro/engines unlocked too (which will just make PGI ignore the thread, and is not the point of this thread)
  
• People arguing the advantages of clan omnis outweigh the locked equipment, without considering that the locked equipment is only affecting some clan omnis poorly, not all of them.

With that in mind, I think we can safely say this entire post will be ignored by PGI. I don't know what I expected out of the brown sea, but I figured this is an important enough topic to warrant bringing up.

ORIGINAL POST:

Russ has heard this question before, and his universal reply was:

"No. If we remove some hard-locked equipment (JJs, CAP on the myst lynx, JJs on some 'Mechs) then it will immediately result in players asking for hard-locked engines to be removed, structure/armor to be changeable, etc, etc. Then everything will become horribly unbalanced and it'll all go to crap".

More or less, that's what he said.

(I find it funny he was the one to make this call, considering he's head of the company and not of balance/game design. How is it his call, again? Doesn't anyone else from PGI get input or get to debate or consider the topic?)

I'm really, really tired of that argument.

Some players have asked for that stuff (engines being removable, structure/armor being changeable) but that's not what we're asking for and you are under no obligation to suddenly listen to them. Just because you change one thing doesn't mean you're magically obligated to change another. You removed the hard-locked flamer on the adder, right? Boy jee, it sure did result in a wave of OP adders running around asking for all of their equipment to be unlocked.

Hard-locked heatsinks, JJs and CAP (on the Myst Lynx) only hurts the worst clan 'Mechs that exist currently. And if you do choose to remove that hard-locked equipment and suddenly that 'Mech becomes a problem, you always have other options. All the clan 'Mechs I can think of that have this problem (like the Warhawk, Summoner, Myst Lynx, etc) are all heavily quicked to account for their issues.

So here's an idea. If removing that equipment proves to be a problem, why not just tone down the quirks? There's an idea.

This change would increase the flexibility of these chassis and open them up to some new playstyles and builds previously unavailble to them, and make them more fit in general.

However, it likely wouldn't result in them suddenly having 20+ tons more to play with or anything like that. Think about it. The Warhawk has 10 hard-locked DHS. (7 external, 3 engine-slot). Technically it stands to gain 10 tons, right? Except a good chunk of the time, players are going to end up taking those heatsinks and slap them right back on, though they might put them in a different spot.

And the Summoner is highly mobile. While some players wouldn't take any JJs, many players would end up slapping some of them back on again.

So the tonnage difference isn't huge here. And it will make the builds a bit more flexible and fun to build in.

Mechs with omni-pods to remove their JJs (Timber, Kitfox, etc) could be ignored. No need, they can already remove them.

Please consider it. Don't use the whole "slippery slope" argument again, it doesn't get us anywhere.

Quirks can't fix everything. They just can't overcome some inherent issues in some chassis. Think about it long and hard. We might just someday see a viable Myst Lynx. It could gain 7 slots and 4 tons. It might still be trash due to low mounts, terrible arm geometry with weapons and otherwise, but at least it'll have some more of a fighting chance.

Edited by Night Thastus, 09 July 2017 - 10:30 AM.

[ShadeofHades]

I fondly remember when the number of JJs were a choice at all for omnis - until the IIC I quite literally had JJs I couldn't fit on a mech because I had removed them from slots before the change was made to superglue them in the pods.

As I recall, JJs were locked because of the TBR and KFX unmounting them from appropriate torsos and putting in larger weapons. I don't think that is the threat it once was, and I'd like to see omnis get some of the freedom and flexibility back that they were supposed to have, too.

Bothered me for a while that the IS have full factory refit capability (literally supposed to bring the thing into a manufacturing facility to change the engine or heatsinks), while we with omnimechs can't even make some of the changes we're supposed to have available in the field.

[Angel of Annihilation]

ShadeofHades, on 06 July 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

I fondly remember when the number of JJs were a choice at all for omnis - until the IIC I quite literally had JJs I couldn't fit on a mech because I had removed them from slots before the change was made to superglue them in the pods.

As I recall, JJs were locked because of the TBR and KFX unmounting them from appropriate torsos and putting in larger weapons. I don't think that is the threat it once was, and I'd like to see omnis get some of the freedom and flexibility back that they were supposed to have, too.

Bothered me for a while that the IS have full factory refit capability (literally supposed to bring the thing into a manufacturing facility to change the engine or heatsinks), while we with omnimechs can't even make some of the changes we're supposed to have available in the field.

I tend to agree with you fully. So many of the Clan Omnimechs are severely handicapped by all the hard locked equipment and structure/armor crits. I am not talking about being able to change engines here of swaping out structure, I am talking about being able to use the same dynamic structure and armor crits the IS gets standard. I would also love to have the heat sinks in the engine be added or removed as well and of course have all the JJs and other fixed equipment become removable.

I mean off all the things PGI has dismissed about lore, the BIGGEST by far is the fully customizable IS mechs that shouldn't be able to have anything customized outside of requiring 6 months in the factory while making Omnimechs be the least customizable mechs in the game. With the new tech and the huge buff IS mechs are going to get, it is time to start loosening the restrictions on Omnimechs.

[R Valentine]

Probably not. The fixed structure, jump jet, and armor slots are all lore, and PGI loves teh lorez.

[ShadeofHades]

Yeah, I wouldn't even argue for some of that. Lock my structure/armor crits, that's fine, that's in line with TT. But if the equipment should be pod-mounted, like JJs that aren't hard-wired (and maybe even if they would be, like the Summoner etc), there's no reason it should be forced.

[Night Thastus]

Kiran Yagami, on 06 July 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

Probably not. The fixed structure, jump jet, and armor slots are all lore, and PGI loves teh lorez.

True, but as time has passed, they've strayed further and further from it. Which is a good thing, IMO. Ammo values aren't lore. Armor/structure values aren't lore. Damage/heat values often aren't lore. Range isn't lore values either. Only thing that's consistently stayed within lore values is slots/tonnage of weapons and equipment, and even some equipment like TC's isn't really like that.

Plus, if we were really going by lore, all non-omnis (IIC's included) would need like 6 months just to change out a couple weapons. And changing a small laser to something like a PPC would basically be impossible.

Not that I advocate for that, it'd be terrible. But it is technically "lore".

[Andi Nagasia]

Kiran Yagami, on 06 July 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

Probably not. The fixed structure, jump jet, and armor slots are all lore, and PGI loves teh lorez.

nope, in Lore Any OmniMech could Mount JJs, in MWO they not only locked but also Chassis Specific,

[ShadeofHades]

Yep. Any Omni, any number of JJs up to the legal amount for your speed, as well as ECM and CAP, whenever the mission called for any or all of them.

[KodiakGW]

Baby steps. Start with either half of the locked heat sinks or JJ on the less used mechs. Remove quirks. See if they become OP. Seriously doubt they will.

[Andi Nagasia]

Personally i would like to see all Locked Equipment unlocked for OmniMechs(equipment, DHSs, Weapons)
Why? because i want to see IS OmniMechs released in MWO(ya they may suck, but i want them not to)
the System needs to change for them, as well those OmniMechs that have been left behind,

[R Valentine]

Andi Nagasia, on 06 July 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Personally i would like to see all Locked Equipment unlocked for OmniMechs(equipment, DHSs, Weapons)
Why? because i want to see IS OmniMechs released in MWO(ya they may suck, but i want them not to)
the System needs to change for them, as well those OmniMechs that have been left behind,

IS omnimech locked to XL = dead on arrival. Don't even think of such an atrocious thing. IS omnis should never be a part of this game. PGI has long since ****** that ship up royally.

[Tarogato]

In general, no. Hardlocked DHS, JJ, engine, structure, and ferro should all stay. That's how omni's work.


But I can stand to make some exceptions to the locked rule for weapons and useless equipment:

- cAP on the Mist Lynx
- Flamer on the Adder
- SHS and TAG on the Owens
- BAP on the Men Shen
- ML on the Avatar
- Flamer on the Balius
- Flamer on the Firestarter (omni)

[nehebkau]

Um, NO.

[Alteran]

Andi Nagasia, on 06 July 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

nope, in Lore Any OmniMech could Mount JJs, in MWO they not only locked but also Chassis Specific,

In Lore, the IS Battlemech was next to impossible to customize. It was one of the main reasons why there were a small handful of variants available. Nevermind swapping out engines, structure and so on. Right now the true Omnimech in MWO is the IS Battlemech.

In Lore, the Clan Omnimech had standard configurations that were used, but they were not limited in any way. Pilots could still use customized configurations together for situational combat conditions, like Aiden Pryde did on Tukayyid by having most of his Galaxies omni's configured with energy based weapons to eliminate ammo shortages and JJs for increased mobility and versatility.

I agree with the OP, unlock the omni's.

[ShadeofHades]

Tarogato, on 06 July 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

In general, no. Hardlocked DHS, JJ, engine, structure, and ferro should all stay. That's how omni's work.


But I can stand to make some exceptions to the locked rule for weapons and useless equipment:

- cAP on the Mist Lynx
- Flamer on the Adder
- SHS and TAG on the Owens
- BAP on the Men Shen
- ML on the Avatar
- Flamer on the Balius
- Flamer on the Firestarter (omni)

Some of the equipment was locked that should not have been, though. JJs on mechs that weren't universally present, in particular. And some of that locked equipment definitely precludes useful-to-MWO status for a few of these mechs.

And again I'll point out that omni pilots are apparently kept in the field or worse at all times vs. battlemech pilots who apparently can get factory time and resources whenever they damn well please. It seems a bit odd, doesn't it?

Again, it's not an argument to unlock everything, but at least being able to remove hardware that should be removable (like JJs in torsos on KFX, TBR, DWF, and others) and perhaps things that *should* be hardwired but almost cripple the mech (like MLX, IFR, and others) could be reconsidered.

[Jay Leon Hart]

I agree with things like CAP not being hard locked, just as the Adder's Flamer was removed.

As for JJs, I say they should release a chassis without them and you can just swap the OmniPods, as you already can with a number of 'mechs.

Heat sinks should stay, unless you want to remove the 10 minimum requirement, then I can build better Light 'mechs.

[process]

I'm in favor of removing hardlocked components if it improves balance. Right now there's a large disparity between 'good' and 'bad' omnis, and that largely is due to the benefits of ferro, endo, and equipment. I'd rather allow omnis to have that flexibility, get most omni chassis to the same level, then apply blanket buffs or nerfs as needed.

As it stands you're still relying on large quirks to compensate for fixed elements. However, engines at a minimum need to remain fixed, to offset the benefits on the omni system.

The secondary benefit to this is the same rules will apply to future IS omnis, who I imagine will be far more hampered by locked elements.

[Andi Nagasia]

Kiran Yagami, on 06 July 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:

IS omnimech locked to XL = dead on arrival. Don't even think of such an atrocious thing. IS omnis should never be a part of this game. PGI has long since ****** that ship up royally.

then perhaps thats a Rule that needs to Change,

the Avatar is a 70Ton IS OmniMech, Equiped with an XL-280,
what if OmniMechs Could Change their Engine Type? this would allow many more options,
being able to Equip a LFE280 would lose it 4Tons, but allow it much more Survivability,

[Mechteric]

* Ferro/Endo shouldn't need to be locked, since certain mechs got screwed by having Ferro but no Endo. But Engine still should be locked for sure to keep the main part of the balancing act of the omnimechs.

* Jump jets shouldn't be locked on BUT should only be allowed on those specific pods that currently have them. This way you still can't just put jets on anything. Ideally they should just make jump jets be another hard point, maybe they could even utilize that on non-omni mechs to limit jump jet location.

[Ryokens leap]

Kiran Yagami, on 06 July 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

Probably not. The fixed structure, jump jet, and armor slots are all lore, and PGI loves teh lorez.

Clans OP balanced in lore by 5 vs 8.