27 replies to this topic

[Gentleman Reaper]

In lore the whole purpose of targeting computers is aiding weapon accuracy. In MWO this is represented by velocity boosts for projectile weapons, but lasers had a beam range bonus, something that has nothing to do with accuracy. The most logical change to make TCs more attractive to mechs using lots of lasers is a laser duration boost, something like -25% for a MK7 computer, a large enough boost to consider dropping heat sinks for one.

Large TCs also still provide too little benefit for their tonnage and space, what numbers would you like to see for them?

Edited by Gentleman Reaper, 09 July 2017 - 09:06 AM.

[Luminis]

Lasers being hit scan weapons makes them fairly accurate as is,which is probably why PGI opted to deviate from the "increased accuracy" theme for them.

Also, I'm not sure another beam duration reduction is healthy for the game. We just had CERMLs nerfed to offset the beam duration reduction caused by the skill tree. Lasers are in a sufficiently good place as is and don't need a buff, in my opinion. No need to reduce their primary weakness - spreading damage - further, especially on the IS side, where laser duration is super short as is.

[Koniving]

I would prefer a duration reduction as opposed to a range bonus, too.

[Weeny Machine]

Yeah, exactly what this game needs: more long-range laser vomit
No, thanks you. If you want pin-point damage, then equip the proper weapons for it

[Koniving]

Or maintain a solid velocity for ballistics and instead also boost PPC / Ballistic ranges.

Bush Hopper, on 09 July 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

Yeah, exactly what this game needs: more long-range laser vomit
No, thanks you. If you want pin-point damage, then equip the proper weapons for it

The guy is saying "STOP" giving range bonuses, and instead "Durations" to reflect the "increased accuracy" that Targeting Computers are supposed to give.

He isn't asking for range. He is stating that is what we already have.

Also between the two... Lasers are supposed to be the pinpoint weapons.
Tech Manual, Battletechnology and a number of novels all state that lasers are between 0.1 to 0.2 second beam times.
Not 1 second, not 1.5...
1/10th of a second. 2/10ths of a second. That's pretty much pinpoint.

Meanwhile ballistics, like the AC/20, are supposed to be between 4 and 100 shots to get 20 damage.

Huh. Interesting?
(Side note: A laser isn't supposed to get its full damage in a single shot either, but that is kind of a moot point.)

Edited by Koniving, 09 July 2017 - 09:21 AM.

[Antares102]

Nobody from PGI will read this thread but I support his idea nonetheless

[Cy Mitchell]

During PTS, I took the TCs off of all my Mechs that primarily used lasers. The only real benefits were the zoom enhancement and the sensor range boost. Heat sinks usually replaced them and helped boost DPS.

Duration is the only laser attribute that would increase accuracy (or at lest damage on target) and simulate what the TCs of lore did. It makes more sense than range and a lot more sense than no benefit at all to an entire build genre.

EDIT: For anyone that did not test on PTS or notice the change, Beam range increase was dropped from the all the TCs.

Edited by Rampage, 09 July 2017 - 09:23 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Koniving, on 09 July 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Or maintain a solid velocity for ballistics and instead also boost PPC / Ballistic ranges.


The guy is saying "STOP" giving range bonuses, and instead "Durations" to reflect the "increased accuracy" that Targeting Computers are supposed to give.

He isn't asking for range. He is stating that is what we already have.

Also between the two... Lasers are supposed to be the pinpoint weapons.
Tech Manual, Battletechnology and a number of novels all state that lasers are between 0.1 to 0.2 second beam times.
Not 1 second, not 1.5...
1/10th of a second. 2/10ths of a second. That's pretty much pinpoint.

Meanwhile ballistics, like the AC/20, are supposed to be between 4 and 100 shots to get 20 damage.

Huh. Interesting?
(Side note: A laser isn't supposed to get its full damage in a single shot either, but that is kind of a moot point.)

Clan laser range is high enough especially considering extreme range bracket of lasers (damage reduction or not). Of course, he wants to trade TC range bonus for burntime because he hardly gives up anything. That was my point.

[HGAK47]

I use one on an odd Hunchie IIC build that I tried to make sort of like a high mounted Yen Lo Wang of sorts. I stuck on a max TC to boost velocity as Clan UAC20`s suck balls but even still it was lacking compared to my trusty Yen Lo.

[Clown Stomp]

Ya want lower duration and 10% quirks from the SK ain't quite cutting it for yas? Fork out the dough for some pulse already.

[Andi Nagasia]

I support this idea,

Bush Hopper, on 09 July 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

Clan laser range is high enough especially considering extreme range bracket of lasers (damage reduction or not). Of course, he wants to trade TC range bonus for burntime because he hardly gives up anything. That was my point.

no trading Targeting Computers are already losing their Laser Range Bonus Next Patch Supposedly,

also assuming that TCs get the Same duration-reduction as Velocity Bonus,
that would mean (-35%C-Laser-Duration)(-38%IS-Laser-Duration)
remember this comes with a 7-8Ton & 7-8Crit Cost, its not Free,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 09 July 2017 - 09:53 AM.

[El Bandito]

I just want IS TC to not be inferior than Clan TC. IS 1 ton 1 slot TC should have similar (albeit slightly different) capability as Clan 1 ton 1 slot TC.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Luminis, on 09 July 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

Lasers being hit scan weapons makes them fairly accurate as is,which is probably why PGI opted to deviate from the "increased accuracy" theme for them.

Also, I'm not sure another beam duration reduction is healthy for the game. We just had CERMLs nerfed to offset the beam duration reduction caused by the skill tree. Lasers are in a sufficiently good place as is and don't need a buff, in my opinion. No need to reduce their primary weakness - spreading damage - further, especially on the IS side, where laser duration is super short as is.

You're giving up heat-sinks and maybe weapons for this buff, TC have little value for laser boats given that beam range is not that useful, especially with how low the values are.

Clown Stomp, on 09 July 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

Ya want lower duration and 10% quirks from the SK ain't quite cutting it for yas? Fork out the dough for some pulse already.

There's a difference between free duration buffs from the ST and buffs that you need to pay for with tonnage and slots. Laser boats would have to run hotter if they want this buff, it won't make them any more powerful, people simply don't choose TCs for lasers.

[Y E O N N E]

This is an extremely dangerous and extremely bad idea. The last thing we need is anybody being able to stack TCs with Skill Tree and have 800 m ERLL that pop damage out in the same time it takes a stock IS Large Pulse. Are you trying to completely obsolete PPCs and Gauss? Because that is a potential result.

Furthermore, IS lasers don't run cold enough to be able to swap out DHS for decently sized TC; too much of a loss in cooling capabilities. So the result is Clan lasers with durations closer to IS lasers for essentially the same heat efficiency instead of superior heat efficiency. Not good.

[Gentleman Reaper]

El Bandito, on 09 July 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

I just want IS TC to not be inferior than Clan TC. IS 1 ton 1 slot TC should have similar (albeit slightly different) capability as Clan 1 ton 1 slot TC.

There's no reason why they shouldn't be identical, since MWO doesn't follow TT's rules regarding targeting computers.

Yeonne Greene, on 09 July 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

This is an extremely dangerous and extremely bad idea. The last thing we need is anybody being able to stack TCs with Skill Tree and have 800 m ERLL that pop damage out in the same time it takes a stock IS Large Pulse. Are you trying to completely obsolete PPCs and Gauss? Because that is a potential result.

Furthermore, IS lasers don't run cold enough to be able to swap out DHS for decently sized TC; too much of a loss in cooling capabilities. So the result is Clan lasers with durations closer to IS lasers for essentially the same heat efficiency instead of superior heat efficiency. Not good.

Like I said, TCs aren't used on laser boats the way they are now, so making them actually worth it won't make Clan laser vomit more powerful. I get your concerns regarding the more space-efficient Clan-tech, but that's an issue with Endo/Ferro/DHS, if PGI balances the Clan and IS versions of these then it would even out the playing field.

Edited by Gentleman Reaper, 09 July 2017 - 10:05 AM.

[El Bandito]

Gentleman Reaper, on 09 July 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

There's no reason why they shouldn't be identical, since MWO doesn't follow TT's rules regarding targeting computers.

In the PTS Clan TCs were superior than IS TCs in terms of performance vs. tonnage/slots required. Hence my concern.

[FupDup]

Semantic nitpick: Laser duration represents "precision" rather than "accuracy."

But yeah, it would make sense. TCs should certainly give SOMETHING to lasers rather than giving nothing like the PTS does (although PGI doesn't seem to have intended that).

[Luminis]

Gentleman Reaper, on 09 July 2017 - 09:57 AM, said:

You're giving up heat-sinks and maybe weapons for this buff, TC have little value for laser boats given that beam range is not that useful, especially with how low the values are.

This is a really novel thought, so bear with me, but maybe, just maybe, not everything in the game has to benefit laser boats. Might be okay if the TCs are primarily used by projectile based builds as opposed to automatically being slapped onto every single laser boat.

That said, I'd personally rather see them keep the range boost than switch to duration reduction - regardless of how things were in the lore. Stacking duration reduction is just too good, I'd say.

[Weeny Machine]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 July 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

I support this idea,


no trading Targeting Computers are already losing their Laser Range Bonus Next Patch Supposedly,

also assuming that TCs get the Same duration-reduction as Velocity Bonus,
that would mean (-35%C-Laser-Duration)(-38%IS-Laser-Duration)
remember this comes with a 7-8Ton & 7-8Crit Cost, its not Free,

Considering that a hitscan weapon suddenly is nearly a pinpoint damage weapon...that's sick. In a game which is abundant with laser spam... oh well.

[Y E O N N E]

Gentleman Reaper, on 09 July 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

Like I said, TCs aren't used on laser boats the way they are now, so making them actually worth it won't make Clan laser vomit more powerful. I get your concerns regarding the more space-efficient Clan-tech, but that's an issue with Endo/Ferro/DHS, if PGI balances the Clan and IS versions of these then it would even out the playing field.

They aren't used now simply because the benefit isn't worth the trade-off, the implication being that unless you make the duration reduction actually worth it on the low end (AKA, potent), they still won't take it. I mean, you'd need at least 1.5% for me to take a TC1 for its duration reduction rather than keep the DHS, but that also means a TC7 is going to need to be worth more than 7x as much because A.) it weighs and slots 7x and B.) that's 6 more tons that could have gone to cooling or engine or weapons.

As for IS TCs being balanced, that means IS TCs need to be more potent per Mark than their Clan counterparts. Are you prepared for that?

I already think adding laser duration reduction to the Skill Tree was a horrendous mistake. It muddies the difference between ER, standard, and pulse lasers, especially on the IS side with 15%. It also weakens the primary immediate trade-off for high-alpha laser vomit, which is that it doesn't do all of that damage at once. I am absolutely not in favor of making any of this worse.