Does anyone else see a parallel between the complaints on this forum, and slow deaths? People like to write up long, and rather interesting posts on things such as LRM spam, or being destroyed by a light with an effective alpha of 20 to 30, more than when somebody gets oneshot by something. A SRM Linebacker can do 58 in an alpha rather easily, that is enough to kill a Hellbringer through rear CT. Now in no way am I saying the linebacker with SRMs needs a nerf, but why don't people complain about it?
It seems odd that the person that dies from having a painful shower for 10-15 seconds, would complain more than a person who was knocked out while the bell was still sounding. What is it about LRMs, light 'mechs, and machine guns, that people can't stand. All three of the previously mentioned items give a surprising amount of time to react. Though if you don't do so it feels like a slow death by suffocation.
What do you guys think? Is the very way that these ways to die more frustrating than taking a double AC20 shot to the nuts? Or are these things "OP". I personally believe LRMs and machine guns to be less than stellar, though some of the lights are quite good, most suck.
2
Thoughts On Complaints
Started by Ruben Faust, Jul 10 2017 05:15 PM
24 replies to this topic
#2
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- Shredder
- 4,789 posts
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Posted 10 July 2017 - 05:20 PM
I can already tell this is going to be a productive thread.
#3
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- Rage
- 9,952 posts
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- LocationOn the farm in central Minnesota
Posted 10 July 2017 - 05:26 PM
There are certain kinds of people in the world, and certain kinds of players in this game OP.
The kind of people complaining about LRMs, light mech and machine guns are, well. um...
nevermind.
The kind of people complaining about LRMs, light mech and machine guns are, well. um...
nevermind.
#4
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- The Hungry
- 78 posts
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Posted 10 July 2017 - 05:40 PM
Not to play the trololol...but..
Dis gunna be gud.
*popcorn*
#5
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- Ace Of Spades
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Posted 10 July 2017 - 05:57 PM
im oddly supprised that nobody ever complained that the ctf-im was op pay2win. i sure as hell felt that way when i took out assaults with 4 salvos of tripple ac10s. lets ignore the plethora of mechs it can one hit. not one ounce of salt.
but give someone death by a thousand missiles and you get sandblasted with rock salt.
but give someone death by a thousand missiles and you get sandblasted with rock salt.
#6
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- The Death Wish
- 551 posts
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Posted 10 July 2017 - 06:19 PM
I suspect it has to do with perception, inability to effect the outcome, and not wanting to accept responsibility.
Nobody running around in a heavy or assault wants to believes that they can, or should, be taken out by a teeny little light that manages to get behind them. They don't perceive that as a reasonable part of the game.
Often, when a light begins to backstab, the victim can do nothing about it themselves, and that stings. Further, as you point out, it isn't just a momentary sting (wth just happened?), it goes on for a while before the pain ends, by which time the bitter taste in the mouth sticks around for quite a while.
Finally, they don't see that they probably should have been more aware of what was going on, stayed with the team, and communicated the problem to get help. Nobody wants to believe it is their fault. (of course, if they ask for help with good details, I'm in grid X being attacked by blah, and the team totally fails to help them at all, that is a slightly different story)
Once it happens a few times, people want to conclude that lights are OP, rather than the sensible, but unpleasant, alternative conclusions.
The LRM situation is similar.
People have this belief that LRMs are an ineffective weapon system (rather than inefficient, which is a huge difference in meaning). Thus, being killed by them is clearly not fair or right (by their estimation).
You frequently can't shoot back when being nailed by LRMs, and might not even be able to see how you are being targeted, so you have little control over your fate, and that is never fun.
(yeah, people say, just take cover, etc, etc, but if it were truly that easy on every map, then LRMs really wouldn't be a problem, would they? how many times have you been in a group when there is an announcement over coms that target X is in the open and alone. Spotters often single out mechs that are trying to move from one spot to another across open ground, which most maps have. The easy defenses against LRMs simply are NOT always available in every single moment.)
Finally, often there might have been a better way to move that meant better cover against LRMs, or just in general. Pilot error, but of the 2nd degree. In many cases the most efficient path movement path is in the clear, and people hope (foolishly?) that they won't be targeted when they try to move across that gap (of course, sometimes there isn't a choice, or the missiles come from an angle where your cover is no good, but anyhow...).
As with the lights, lack of control to effect the situation, and disbelief that it can happen that way leads people to scream like crazy, unreasonably. LRMs having become more common (at least, there seem to be more around, to my perception
), makes this pain more constant.
Nobody running around in a heavy or assault wants to believes that they can, or should, be taken out by a teeny little light that manages to get behind them. They don't perceive that as a reasonable part of the game.
Often, when a light begins to backstab, the victim can do nothing about it themselves, and that stings. Further, as you point out, it isn't just a momentary sting (wth just happened?), it goes on for a while before the pain ends, by which time the bitter taste in the mouth sticks around for quite a while.
Finally, they don't see that they probably should have been more aware of what was going on, stayed with the team, and communicated the problem to get help. Nobody wants to believe it is their fault. (of course, if they ask for help with good details, I'm in grid X being attacked by blah, and the team totally fails to help them at all, that is a slightly different story)
Once it happens a few times, people want to conclude that lights are OP, rather than the sensible, but unpleasant, alternative conclusions.
The LRM situation is similar.
People have this belief that LRMs are an ineffective weapon system (rather than inefficient, which is a huge difference in meaning). Thus, being killed by them is clearly not fair or right (by their estimation).
You frequently can't shoot back when being nailed by LRMs, and might not even be able to see how you are being targeted, so you have little control over your fate, and that is never fun.
(yeah, people say, just take cover, etc, etc, but if it were truly that easy on every map, then LRMs really wouldn't be a problem, would they? how many times have you been in a group when there is an announcement over coms that target X is in the open and alone. Spotters often single out mechs that are trying to move from one spot to another across open ground, which most maps have. The easy defenses against LRMs simply are NOT always available in every single moment.)
Finally, often there might have been a better way to move that meant better cover against LRMs, or just in general. Pilot error, but of the 2nd degree. In many cases the most efficient path movement path is in the clear, and people hope (foolishly?) that they won't be targeted when they try to move across that gap (of course, sometimes there isn't a choice, or the missiles come from an angle where your cover is no good, but anyhow...).
As with the lights, lack of control to effect the situation, and disbelief that it can happen that way leads people to scream like crazy, unreasonably. LRMs having become more common (at least, there seem to be more around, to my perception
), makes this pain more constant.
#7
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- Bad Company
- 13 posts
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Posted 10 July 2017 - 06:46 PM
Insanity09, on 10 July 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:
I suspect it has to do with perception, inability to effect the outcome, and not wanting to accept responsibility.
Nobody running around in a heavy or assault wants to believes that they can, or should, be taken out by a teeny little light that manages to get behind them. They don't perceive that as a reasonable part of the game.
Often, when a light begins to backstab, the victim can do nothing about it themselves, and that stings. Further, as you point out, it isn't just a momentary sting (wth just happened?), it goes on for a while before the pain ends, by which time the bitter taste in the mouth sticks around for quite a while.
Finally, they don't see that they probably should have been more aware of what was going on, stayed with the team, and communicated the problem to get help. Nobody wants to believe it is their fault. (of course, if they ask for help with good details, I'm in grid X being attacked by blah, and the team totally fails to help them at all, that is a slightly different story)
Once it happens a few times, people want to conclude that lights are OP, rather than the sensible, but unpleasant, alternative conclusions.
The LRM situation is similar.
People have this belief that LRMs are an ineffective weapon system (rather than inefficient, which is a huge difference in meaning). Thus, being killed by them is clearly not fair or right (by their estimation).
You frequently can't shoot back when being nailed by LRMs, and might not even be able to see how you are being targeted, so you have little control over your fate, and that is never fun.
(yeah, people say, just take cover, etc, etc, but if it were truly that easy on every map, then LRMs really wouldn't be a problem, would they? how many times have you been in a group when there is an announcement over coms that target X is in the open and alone. Spotters often single out mechs that are trying to move from one spot to another across open ground, which most maps have. The easy defenses against LRMs simply are NOT always available in every single moment.)
Finally, often there might have been a better way to move that meant better cover against LRMs, or just in general. Pilot error, but of the 2nd degree. In many cases the most efficient path movement path is in the clear, and people hope (foolishly?) that they won't be targeted when they try to move across that gap (of course, sometimes there isn't a choice, or the missiles come from an angle where your cover is no good, but anyhow...).
As with the lights, lack of control to effect the situation, and disbelief that it can happen that way leads people to scream like crazy, unreasonably. LRMs having become more common (at least, there seem to be more around, to my perception ), makes this pain more constant.
Nobody running around in a heavy or assault wants to believes that they can, or should, be taken out by a teeny little light that manages to get behind them. They don't perceive that as a reasonable part of the game.
Often, when a light begins to backstab, the victim can do nothing about it themselves, and that stings. Further, as you point out, it isn't just a momentary sting (wth just happened?), it goes on for a while before the pain ends, by which time the bitter taste in the mouth sticks around for quite a while.
Finally, they don't see that they probably should have been more aware of what was going on, stayed with the team, and communicated the problem to get help. Nobody wants to believe it is their fault. (of course, if they ask for help with good details, I'm in grid X being attacked by blah, and the team totally fails to help them at all, that is a slightly different story)
Once it happens a few times, people want to conclude that lights are OP, rather than the sensible, but unpleasant, alternative conclusions.
The LRM situation is similar.
People have this belief that LRMs are an ineffective weapon system (rather than inefficient, which is a huge difference in meaning). Thus, being killed by them is clearly not fair or right (by their estimation).
You frequently can't shoot back when being nailed by LRMs, and might not even be able to see how you are being targeted, so you have little control over your fate, and that is never fun.
(yeah, people say, just take cover, etc, etc, but if it were truly that easy on every map, then LRMs really wouldn't be a problem, would they? how many times have you been in a group when there is an announcement over coms that target X is in the open and alone. Spotters often single out mechs that are trying to move from one spot to another across open ground, which most maps have. The easy defenses against LRMs simply are NOT always available in every single moment.)
Finally, often there might have been a better way to move that meant better cover against LRMs, or just in general. Pilot error, but of the 2nd degree. In many cases the most efficient path movement path is in the clear, and people hope (foolishly?) that they won't be targeted when they try to move across that gap (of course, sometimes there isn't a choice, or the missiles come from an angle where your cover is no good, but anyhow...).
As with the lights, lack of control to effect the situation, and disbelief that it can happen that way leads people to scream like crazy, unreasonably. LRMs having become more common (at least, there seem to be more around, to my perception
), makes this pain more constant.This is one of the most well thought out posts I've ever read.
#8
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- The Infernal
- 8,881 posts
Member
Posted 10 July 2017 - 07:14 PM
Ruben Faust, on 10 July 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:
Does anyone else see a parallel between the complaints on this forum, and slow deaths? People like to write up long, and rather interesting posts on things such as LRM spam, or being destroyed by a light with an effective alpha of 20 to 30, more than when somebody gets oneshot by something. A SRM Linebacker can do 58 in an alpha rather easily, that is enough to kill a Hellbringer through rear CT. Now in no way am I saying the linebacker with SRMs needs a nerf, but why don't people complain about it?
It seems odd that the person that dies from having a painful shower for 10-15 seconds, would complain more than a person who was knocked out while the bell was still sounding. What is it about LRMs, light 'mechs, and machine guns, that people can't stand. All three of the previously mentioned items give a surprising amount of time to react. Though if you don't do so it feels like a slow death by suffocation.
What do you guys think? Is the very way that these ways to die more frustrating than taking a double AC20 shot to the nuts? Or are these things "OP". I personally believe LRMs and machine guns to be less than stellar, though some of the lights are quite good, most suck.
It seems odd that the person that dies from having a painful shower for 10-15 seconds, would complain more than a person who was knocked out while the bell was still sounding. What is it about LRMs, light 'mechs, and machine guns, that people can't stand. All three of the previously mentioned items give a surprising amount of time to react. Though if you don't do so it feels like a slow death by suffocation.
What do you guys think? Is the very way that these ways to die more frustrating than taking a double AC20 shot to the nuts? Or are these things "OP". I personally believe LRMs and machine guns to be less than stellar, though some of the lights are quite good, most suck.
It is a matter of what annoys you more. The extremely rare, maybe one out of 20-30 matches, that you get one shot to the back CT coming from the rather large 65 ton mech you should have noticed trying to sneak up on you or being caught in a LRM storm every 5th match and slowly picked apart by them without having even one iota of a chance to fight back. Which one annoys you more? Same goes for the light mech. Do you get more annoyed being chased down by a fast, impossible to hit light mech each an every match or again the, rare time when a 65 ton, relatively large mech that you can beat up on if you happen to notice it trying to sneak up on you, gets to your back and cores you out in a single shot.
Do you happen to see what both scenarios have in common? In one with good situational awareness you can fight back against and counter, in the other, there is nothing you can really do that is very effective, that allows you to fight back (at least as an Assault and in most heavies that is).
Also another thing is frequency. If something only happens very rarely, you tend to put it down to just bad dumb luck, i.e. wrong place at the wrong time. If it happens very often, then it is just plain annoying.
Lastly, something annoying and frustrating can be very minor, yet still cause major frustrating and annoyance, i.e. a drop of water landing on your forehead every few seconds or a mosquito buzzing around your head. Basically it doesn't matter how powerful the thing that is annoying you is, it just matters that it annoys you.
Edited by Viktor Drake, 10 July 2017 - 07:15 PM.
#9
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- CS 2020 Referee
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- LocationMelbourne, AU
Posted 10 July 2017 - 07:17 PM
Ruben Faust, on 10 July 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:
This is one of the most well thought out posts I've ever read.
You actually read it?
#10
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- Big Daddy
- 26,736 posts
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- LocationStill doing ungodly amount of damage, but with more accuracy.
Posted 10 July 2017 - 07:21 PM
LordNothing, on 10 July 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:
im oddly supprised that nobody ever complained that the ctf-im was op pay2win. i sure as hell felt that way when i took out assaults with 4 salvos of tripple ac10s. lets ignore the plethora of mechs it can one hit. not one ounce of salt.
I pointed out Ilya was P2W, from 2013. But then Clan Invasion happened and the powercreep jumped up by leagues.
Ruben Faust, on 10 July 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:
Does anyone else see a parallel between the complaints on this forum, and slow deaths?
No, cause people complained about Dakka Bear and Dakka Whale back when they could delete mechs in seconds.
Edited by El Bandito, 10 July 2017 - 07:22 PM.
#12
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- Elite Founder
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Posted 10 July 2017 - 07:24 PM
Quote
The kind of people complaining about LRMs, light mech and machine guns are, well. um...
well the people complaining about heavy machine guns are at least right, they are OP lol
#13
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- Elite Founder
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- LocationWisconsin
Posted 10 July 2017 - 07:30 PM
Viktor Drake, on 10 July 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:
It is a matter of what annoys you more. The extremely rare, maybe one out of 20-30 matches, that you get one shot to the back CT coming from the rather large 65 ton mech you should have noticed trying to sneak up on you or being caught in a LRM storm every 5th match and slowly picked apart by them without having even one iota of a chance to fight back. Which one annoys you more? Same goes for the light mech. Do you get more annoyed being chased down by a fast, impossible to hit light mech each an every match or again the, rare time when a 65 ton, relatively large mech that you can beat up on if you happen to notice it trying to sneak up on you, gets to your back and cores you out in a single shot.
I think you pretty much nailed it.
I don't think it's the means or the frequency one dies by these vices... I think it''s the absolute feeling of helplessness and inability to even reciprocate.
The feeling clearly compounds if one is subjugated to this time and time again... Even if it's their own failing to recognize and counter the threat.
It's far easier to call it the boogieman than to self-reflect and admit ones own fault.
#14
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- Giant Helper
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Posted 10 July 2017 - 07:53 PM
Insanity09, on 10 July 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:
You frequently can't shoot back when being nailed by LRMs, and might not even be able to see how you are being targeted, so you have little control over your fate, and that is never fun.
This is pretty much it. Sometimes you can just take your hands off the keyboard, lean back and ***** throw your mouse out the window in rage once you have become the center of attention from the lurmers.
I've tried to skip radar derp on a couple of the mechs i've been skilling recently... It does not work, you can NOT skip radar derp.
It works untill it doesn't, and then you rage and put the points into radar derp.
Edit: Lights are a different story alltogether, I see no reason to complain about someone killing you in a light. They were good at what they did, good for them.
Edited by Gwahlur, 10 July 2017 - 07:56 PM.
#15
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- The 1 Percent
- 1,482 posts
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Posted 10 July 2017 - 08:10 PM
Insanity09, on 10 July 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:
I suspect it has to do with perception, inability to effect the outcome, and not wanting to accept responsibility.
agreed.
i'm guessing the thought process of the potato goes like this:
1. X weapon system is a bad weapon. i read that on the forums so it must be true.
2. good players don't need Y or Z counters to it because point 1.
3. i'm a good player and no one can tell me otherwise even with my sub-par stats
4. so i don't run Y or Z.
5. if i die to X, it must be because someone is abusing cheese.
6. it can't be because i'm bad because refer to point 3.
7. therefore X should be nerfed because
8. they're supposed to be brought in line to what they're supposed to be:
9. which is point 1.
potatoes consistently get lurmed to death. and it's stupid because there is almost always a way to reciprocate when you're getting lurmed.
a) if the lurmer has his own lock, he's in direct line of sight. which means you can shoot back.
if he's getting sight from a uav, shoot the uav.c) someone is spotting for him. which means the spotter is in direct line of sight. which means you can shoot the spotter.
d) no one has line of sight. you got narc-ed. hide in a ditch and power down.
potatoes also always get their rears chewed up by lights. because potatoes have the situational and positional awareness of... potatoes. i don't know why potato assault pilots are always so shocked that an enemy light manages to flank them and hit them in the rear. it happens every game. how many times does a potato need to get cored from the back by a mech 1/3 their size before learning to stick with the team or bring seismic?
apparently the answer is until the end of time. because point 3.
#17
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- Elite Founder
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Posted 10 July 2017 - 08:31 PM
People like to feel like they've made mistakes and can make up for them next time, people don't like it when they feel the game cheats them.
Super Meatboy is an example of a game where you will die a lot but you will get better and over come the places that are frustrating you if you keep at it.
When it feels fruitless people come and complain. However even when it is clearly their fault but happened to feel fruitless because they're just that bad they will also come and complain. A lot of the complaining people do is because they just aren't good.
You'll never silence idiocy.
Super Meatboy is an example of a game where you will die a lot but you will get better and over come the places that are frustrating you if you keep at it.
When it feels fruitless people come and complain. However even when it is clearly their fault but happened to feel fruitless because they're just that bad they will also come and complain. A lot of the complaining people do is because they just aren't good.
You'll never silence idiocy.
#18
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- The Ominous
- 15 posts
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Posted 10 July 2017 - 08:41 PM
If there is a critical factor, I think it's most likely to be distance.
Speaking to the example in the opening post, the thing about the SRM Linebacker is that while it can both move fast and hit hard, it has very short range and and is not particularly hard to spot unless the pilot is very clever. So, attentive foes can see it and potentially wear it down from the distance, and thus give themselves a fighting chance if not kill the linebacker outright. If there's a comparison to what people complain about with LRMs, I think it would be the dual gauss/dual gauss + ppc/quad gauss bear or whale that can bring your CT to orange in an instant while they're still a grey blob on the horizon. You don't realize you're in danger until you're already crippled, and while knowing how to position can fix this when you're learning it can be hard to tell when you're in a dangerous spot and thus whether or not you're doing it right.
Overall I agree with the people saying it's about perceived control. When you die and it feels like you couldn't do anything about it, that's very frustrating. The thing about a lot of those cases is that, in the ones where the player made a mistake, the mistake happened significantly before the death. So when being away from the team or out of cover too long is what actually causes the death, even if it's a light or LRM that's executing it, the person experiencing it by that point can't effectively fight off the light or survive the LRMs and it feels unfair.
Speaking to the example in the opening post, the thing about the SRM Linebacker is that while it can both move fast and hit hard, it has very short range and and is not particularly hard to spot unless the pilot is very clever. So, attentive foes can see it and potentially wear it down from the distance, and thus give themselves a fighting chance if not kill the linebacker outright. If there's a comparison to what people complain about with LRMs, I think it would be the dual gauss/dual gauss + ppc/quad gauss bear or whale that can bring your CT to orange in an instant while they're still a grey blob on the horizon. You don't realize you're in danger until you're already crippled, and while knowing how to position can fix this when you're learning it can be hard to tell when you're in a dangerous spot and thus whether or not you're doing it right.
Overall I agree with the people saying it's about perceived control. When you die and it feels like you couldn't do anything about it, that's very frustrating. The thing about a lot of those cases is that, in the ones where the player made a mistake, the mistake happened significantly before the death. So when being away from the team or out of cover too long is what actually causes the death, even if it's a light or LRM that's executing it, the person experiencing it by that point can't effectively fight off the light or survive the LRMs and it feels unfair.
#19
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- Big Daddy
- 26,736 posts
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- LocationStill doing ungodly amount of damage, but with more accuracy.
Posted 10 July 2017 - 08:58 PM
Mechwarrior1441491, on 10 July 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:
Game is a lame duck. We all know it.
At least it is a duck--which I ordered.
#20
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- The Raider
- 197 posts
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Posted 10 July 2017 - 09:27 PM
Ruben Faust, on 10 July 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:
Does anyone else see a parallel between the complaints on this forum, and slow deaths? People like to write up long, and rather interesting posts on things such as LRM spam, or being destroyed by a light with an effective alpha of 20 to 30, more than when somebody gets oneshot by something. A SRM Linebacker can do 58 in an alpha rather easily, that is enough to kill a Hellbringer through rear CT. Now in no way am I saying the linebacker with SRMs needs a nerf, but why don't people complain about it?
It seems odd that the person that dies from having a painful shower for 10-15 seconds, would complain more than a person who was knocked out while the bell was still sounding. What is it about LRMs, light 'mechs, and machine guns, that people can't stand. All three of the previously mentioned items give a surprising amount of time to react. Though if you don't do so it feels like a slow death by suffocation.
What do you guys think? Is the very way that these ways to die more frustrating than taking a double AC20 shot to the nuts? Or are these things "OP". I personally believe LRMs and machine guns to be less than stellar, though some of the lights are quite good, most suck.
It seems odd that the person that dies from having a painful shower for 10-15 seconds, would complain more than a person who was knocked out while the bell was still sounding. What is it about LRMs, light 'mechs, and machine guns, that people can't stand. All three of the previously mentioned items give a surprising amount of time to react. Though if you don't do so it feels like a slow death by suffocation.
What do you guys think? Is the very way that these ways to die more frustrating than taking a double AC20 shot to the nuts? Or are these things "OP". I personally believe LRMs and machine guns to be less than stellar, though some of the lights are quite good, most suck.
It's not so much that lights are op, it's that they usually have lag shield or hit reg problems because the servers are garbage and the coding in this game is garbage. So in turn you get inconsistencies, either lights get one shot due to the way HSR works or they take no damage in the part hit because of **** coding in an outdated engine.
The only way that PGI can make reasonable changes in this game that will further it as a whole will be a 100% full engine swap. There is no other way because they literally coded themselves into a corner with this engine.
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