43 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Yeah no. A 50% damage increase is absurd.

The x4 LB10X Kodiak would become the best assault in the game overnight by a huge margin.

A 10%-20% damage increase is more than reasonable.

With a 20% damage increase the x4 LB10X would likely equal if not surpass the x2 CUAC5, x2 CUAC Kodiak. Because it would do comparable dps, but with guns that never jam, better heat efficiency, better ammo efficiency, and LBX doesnt spread damage around much worse than CUACs already do.

1.2 damage per pellet is already pushing the limit for how much of a damage buff LBX should get.

Edited by Khobai, 11 July 2017 - 05:22 PM.

[Snowbluff]

LB do 20% more damage to structure due to their crit bonus. An LBX will do 12 damage against structure usually.

The main problem is the spread. The LB spread out, when we should give them a fixed spread. This would make them more consistent over range. Then we can look at increasing/decreasing it, and also maybe improving fire rate. I'm generally against improving the damage, because I don't want them outright replacing ACs when the spread is made useful.

[Brain Cancer]

I'm of the opinion that if a weapon spreads damage, it should do something else better to compensate for the fact that the best damage is focused.

Adding more raw damage to compensate simply turns the weapon into an overpowered gankcannon at close range with LB-X as they are. Cluster rounds were designed to ruin exposed equipment/soft targets in TT, as pellets were perfect for getting critical hits on them (literally nothing did it better than a hail of 1-point hits to internal structure).

And crits damaging structure just means the bigger guns actually just zero out structure faster, rather than giving crits a chance to ruin weapons, damage/detonate ammo, and so forth. As it stands, it's more efficient to simply burn off a component than breach it's armor and sandblast the internals to wreak havoc on the target instead. MGs get the "structure destructor" role, give LB-X's the "if this gun pokes around in your structure, kiss your equpiment goodbye" role, as both are unique things for them to do vs the usual "let's focus a bunch of damage in one point and turn your robot into a giant metal donut".

Oh, and don't forget actually finally coding everything else that needs to have an effect when damaged. If we had, the advantage Clan XLs have would have been much, much smaller given how many other ways a robot can get crippled or destroyed.

[sceii]

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

Yeah no. A 50% damage increase is absurd.

The x4 LB10X Kodiak would become the best assault in the game overnight by a huge margin.

A 10%-20% damage increase is more than reasonable.

With a 20% damage increase the x4 LB10X would likely equal if not surpass the x2 CUAC5, x2 CUAC Kodiak. Because it would do comparable dps, but with guns that never jam, better heat efficiency, better ammo efficiency, and LBX doesnt spread damage around much worse than CUACs already do.

1.2 damage per pellet is already pushing the limit for how much of a damage buff LBX should get.

Seems not many people here play clams. May be isLBX10 is not very great weapon, but for clams LBX are really good option if you want to brawl, uac jam and spread and is less heat efficient, ac have bigger spread close range or much longer facetime.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm of the opinion that if a weapon spreads damage, it should do something else better to compensate for the fact that the best damage is focused.

I agree. I would like to see LBX focus more on critical hits.

Unfortunately that would require a complete overhaul of the crit system which I cant see PGI doing.

[Gattsus]

Pls no. Decrease cooldown, pls.

[Xetelian]

LBX ACs need some serious love.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

Yeah no. A 50% damage increase is absurd.

The x4 LB10X Kodiak would become the best assault in the game overnight by a huge margin.

A 10%-20% damage increase is more than reasonable.

With a 20% damage increase the x4 LB10X would likely equal if not surpass the x2 CUAC5, x2 CUAC Kodiak. Because it would do comparable dps, but with guns that never jam, better heat efficiency, better ammo efficiency, and LBX doesnt spread damage around much worse than CUACs already do.

1.2 damage per pellet is already pushing the limit for how much of a damage buff LBX should get.

With current mechanics, even with 1.5 dmg per pellet, you would be looking at max 7,5 dmg to targeted part at 300m.

Not that good, still inferior to ac10.

Edited by davoodoo, 12 July 2017 - 02:23 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

davoodoo, on 12 July 2017 - 02:23 AM, said:

With current mechanics, even with 1.5 dmg per pellet, you would be looking at max 7,5 dmg to targeted part at 300m.

Not that good, still inferior to ac10.

But you don't just use the LBX-10 at 300m. You can use it at 200, 150, 90 or 30m, too, and at those ranges, the weapon would outperform a lot of alternatives. The idea is to make the weapon overall balanced, not to make LBX the domineering short range weapon.

Start with 10 % or maybe even 20 %, wait a few weeks and see what happens, then adjust accordingly.


Or revamp the crit system in some way to make crits more relevant. But revamping whole subsystems for the sake of mostly one group of weapons might be overdoing it.

[Lucian Nostra]

1.2 or 1.3 damage max per pellet and the weapons would be in a much better spot, after that could look at re fire rates if it wasn't enough.

1.5 damage is just to much

[davoodoo]

MustrumRidcully, on 12 July 2017 - 02:30 AM, said:

But you don't just use the LBX-10 at 300m. You can use it at 200, 150, 90 or 30m, too, and at those ranges, the weapon would outperform a lot of alternatives. The idea is to make the weapon overall balanced, not to make LBX the domineering short range weapon.

Start with 10 % or maybe even 20 %, wait a few weeks and see what happens, then adjust accordingly.


Or revamp the crit system in some way to make crits more relevant. But revamping whole subsystems for the sake of mostly one group of weapons might be overdoing it.

You basically fire it whenever possible as soon as you see enemy within range, but besides that

What exactly will it outperform?? srms?? nope, not when srm6a have 0.81 dps per ton, csrm6a 1.2 dps per ton while lb10x with 15 dmg would still have 0.54dps per ton and clb10x 0.6 dps per ton.

But ofc we wont just stare enemy at point blank range right? so high alphas over dps
srm6a 12.9/4=3.23 dmg per ton
csrm6a 12/2.5=4.8 dmg per ton
lb10x 15/11=1,36 dmg per ton
clb10x 15/10=1.5 dmg per ton

I think you seriously overestimate how good lbx is at point blank...

Edited by davoodoo, 12 July 2017 - 04:13 AM.

[sceii]

davoodoo, on 12 July 2017 - 04:10 AM, said:

You basically fire it whenever possible as soon as you see enemy within range, but besides that

What exactly will it outperform?? srms?? nope, not when srm6a have 0.81 dps per ton, csrm6a 1.2 dps per ton while lb10x with 15 dmg would still have 0.54dps per ton and clb10x 0.6 dps per ton.

But ofc we wont just stare enemy at point blank range right? so high alphas over dps
srm6a 12.9/4=3.23 dmg per ton
csrm6a 12/2.5=4.8 dmg per ton
lb10x 15/11=1,36 dmg per ton
clb10x 15/10=1.5 dmg per ton

I think you seriously overestimate how good lbx is at point blank...

When you talk about close range combat you should not forget about heat efficiency. cSRM6 have 3 damage per 1 heat, while lbx10 has 5 damage per 1 heat.
You also forget that if you're fighting close range you have ghost heat and you need to mount something else after you have 4 racks, lbx is a good answer (if you have spare tonnage)
So even now lbx have their niche.

[davoodoo]

sceii, on 12 July 2017 - 04:20 AM, said:

When you talk about close range combat you should not forget about heat efficiency. cSRM6 have 3 damage per 1 heat, while lbx10 has 5 damage per 1 heat.
You also forget that if you're fighting close range you have ghost heat and you need to mount something else after you have 4 racks, lbx is a good answer (if you have spare tonnage)
So even now lbx have their niche.

Hardly a worthwhile exchange.

Now 4 srm6a, will do 48 dmg, throw lets say 2 lb20x to that, you have 88 dmg already.
now add 50% to lbx, 108 dmg. 22% dmg increase.
add 20% instead, 96 dmg, 9% dmg increase.

Its not even that you want those lbx there, you just put them because 2 uac20 trigger gh, 4 uac10 kdk3 now has ridiculous ghost heat while 4 lb10x doesnt, you cant put 2 ac10 in side torso for is, but you can lb10x.

Edited by davoodoo, 12 July 2017 - 05:41 AM.

[sceii]

davoodoo, on 12 July 2017 - 05:38 AM, said:

Hardly a worthwhile exchange.

Now 4 srm6a, will do 48 dmg, throw lets say 2 lb20x(and those go there just because you cant fire dual uac10) to that, you have 88 dmg already.
now add 50% to lbx, 108 dmg. 22% dmg increase.
add 20% instead, 96 dmg, 9% dmg increase.

Do not measure it in %
4srm6=48 damage
4srm6+lbx20=68 damage
68damage is 2 hits to strip 100 tonner side torso.
48damage is 3 hits.
So without lbx20 you need double time to half 100tonner. Does not sound so bad now?

[davoodoo]

sceii, on 12 July 2017 - 05:43 AM, said:

Do not measure it in %
4srm6=48 damage
4srm6+lbx20=68 damage
68damage is 2 hits to strip 100 tonner side torso.
48damage is 3 hits.
So without lbx20 you need double time to half 100tonner. Does not sound so bad now?

What do you even compare, cause it missed the point completely...

[Dread Render]

No, No, No.
No Damage increases without major armor increase.
TTK is way to short as it is.

NOOOOOOO

[MustrumRidcully]

Dread Render, on 12 July 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

No, No, No.
No Damage increases without major armor increase.
TTK is way to short as it is.

NOOOOOOO

That only matters if a weapon is actually commonly used.
If it it's not, improving it will not neccessarily impact TTK. (Unless they overdo it, of course)


I think in 12v12, there isn't really much more one can do for TTK. 8v8 would make more of a difference.

[davoodoo]

Dread Render, on 12 July 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

No, No, No.
No Damage increases without major armor increase.
TTK is way to short as it is.

NOOOOOOO

Say that to ultras...

Damage increase is coming while lbx still remains worse than 3025 tech.

Edited by davoodoo, 12 July 2017 - 07:08 AM.

[Vonbach]

A better idea than increasing damage is fixing the pellets registering in the first place.
I've hit people with and seen people unload easily a hundred points of damage with lb10x
at point blank range and have it only scratch the paint.

Edited by Vonbach, 12 July 2017 - 10:29 AM.

[Antares102]

Vonbach, on 12 July 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

A better idea than increasing damage is fixing the pellets registering in the first place.
I've hit people and seen people unload easily a hundred points of damage with lb10x
at point blank range and have it only scratch the paint.

Well true, but this is much more effort since it exists forever.
Changing XML values is much more easy and realistic.

Edited by Antares102, 12 July 2017 - 10:40 AM.