40 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

as the Title Says
Making ATM Ammo an Upgrade rather than making them 1 Launcher,

ATM Perceived Stats

Andi Nagasia, on 14 March 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

ATMs
ATM3/ATM6/ATM9/ATM12
Advance Tactical Missile System fires Guided Missile at Medium Ranges,
the launchers are heavy but they can fire missiles that Behave 3 different ways,
-
Weapon,..Damage,..Heat,.....Velocity,.....Cool-down,...Range(3/2/1),..Max Range,.Tons,.Crit*,
ATM3,........9-6-3.........2....100-200-300......3.50..........270-450-810.........810.........1.5......2...
ATM6,......18-12-6.......4....100-200-300......4.00..........270-450-810.........810.........3.5......3...
ATM9,......27-18-9.......6....100-200-300......4.50..........270-450-810.........810...........5.......4...
ATM12,...36-24-12......8....100-200-300......5.00..........270-450-810.........810...........7.......5...
i think ATMs could be Scripted to work in a step like system so their are Viable at all ranges,
(120-270 = 100V & 3Dam)(271-450 = 200V & 2Dam)(451-810 = 300V & 1Dam)

what if instead of blending all 3 ammo types into one,
with (120-270 = 3Dam)(271-450 = 2Dam)(451-810 = 1Dam)
with a supposed min range of 120(PGI Civil War new Tech Talk Video)


why not make each ammo type an Upgrade like Artimis?
if you have ATM Equipped the Grayed out ATM Upgrade Section can be selected,
of which you can choose the 1 of the 3 ATM Ammo Types,

Andi Nagasia, on 12 July 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

Weapon(Ammo),...Damage,...Velocity,...Range,...Max Range,...
High-Explosive,..........3............160.........270...........270...........
Standard,...................2.............240.....120-550.......550............
Extended-Range,......1.............300......120-810.......810...........

this isnt Lore Friendly but then again nether is rolling all 3 Ammo types into 1,
-
this would also allow each of the Ammo Types to be Balanced,
each Ammo Type with its own Velocity Spread and Ammunition Counts,
-
this would also help add some info war Benefits to MWO as well
as much like a Light seeing a Mech with Streaks, or a CAT with 4LRM15,
you would respond differently to a mech with ATM12+HE vs ATM12+ER,


this would be within PGIs power to do, and i feel it would be easier to balance,
this would also allow ATMs to be Effective with all its Available Ammo Types,
where as having 1 ammo type may cause short and long ranges to suffer,

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 03 May 2017 - 08:34 PM.

[FupDup]

No. ATMs are supposed to be flexible in the ability to change their ammo on the fly. You're making them commit to a single ammo type for a whole match.

The PGI idea of having damage based on range (actually suggested by some players before but whatever) somewhat simulates this because the various ammo types dealt less and less damage as you got further away (short range HE ammo strongest, long range Extended ammo weakest, Standard ammo in the middle).

[mike29tw]

Khobai, on 03 May 2017 - 09:12 PM, said:

Except that theyre giving them a min range which kindve defeats the purpose of ATMs being better at short range than LRMs.

Honestly I dont see how ATMs will be good if they have a min range and are hard countered by ECM at longer ranges. Why would I ever use them?

For flexibility? Consistency? So that you aren't completely useless in certain circumstances like SRM outside of brawling range or LRM inside minimum range?

Numbers and balance notwithstanding, isn't that the point of ATM?

[Andi Nagasia]

FupDup, on 03 May 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

No. ATMs are supposed to be flexible in the ability to change their ammo on the fly. You're making them commit to a single ammo type for a whole match.

The PGI idea of having damage based on range (actually suggested by some players before but whatever) somewhat simulates this because the various ammo types dealt less and less damage as you got further away (short range HE ammo strongest, long range Extended ammo weakest, Standard ammo in the middle).

but this will also lead to much more Diversity with ATMs which isnt intended with it in Lore,
this also makes it hard to balance, as how do you make 3 damage less powerful at short range,
wail also making 1damage at long range viable, this is the problem making it all 1 ammo type makes,

[Khobai]

Quote

For flexibility? Consistency? So that you aren't completely useless in certain circumstances like SRM outside of brawling range or LRM inside minimum range?

except theyre not that flexible if they have a min range. thats kindve my point.

plus they come with a low missile count that AMS will devour. And they have all the weaknesses of LRMs and none of the strengths.

Quote

but this will also lead to much more Diversity with ATMs which isnt intended with it in Lore,

this also makes it hard to balance, as how do you make 3 damage less powerful at short range,
wail also making 1damage at long range viable, this is the problem making it all 1 ammo type makes,

what do you mean. in tabletop you can carry all three ammo types and swap as needed.

so really what PGI is doing with damage dropoff isnt much different from that.

except if PGI gives them a min range it ruins the 3 damage aspect of ATMs at short range.

Edited by Khobai, 03 May 2017 - 09:27 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

mike29tw, on 03 May 2017 - 09:16 PM, said:

For flexibility? Consistency? So that you aren't completely useless in certain circumstances like SRM outside of brawling range or LRM inside minimum range?

Numbers and balance notwithstanding, isn't that the point of ATM?

ATMs arnt effected by Artimis,
so if they have more spread than LRMs+A they will be inferior to LRMs outside Short Range,

in the Topic about how much Ammo/Ton ATMs should have with Hybrid Ammo, most felt 100 would be good,
if PGI goes with 100 Ammo/Ton, & Same Spread LRM+A & 120 Min Range, LRMs will be better than ATMs past 270m

[Khobai]

Quote

ATMs arnt effected by Artimis,

yes they are. they get artemis built in for free at no tonnage/critslot cost.

the reason theyre inferior to lrms isnt lack of artemis

its 1) lower missile count so ams wrecks them, 2) cant indirect fire like lrms, 3) weigh a whole lot more than lrms (a measly ATM6 is equal to an LRM15 for tonnage)

unless ATMs do absolutely crushing damage in short range, they are inferior to LRMs in virtually every way. but the min range is going to prevent that. which is why the min range makes no sense.

Edited by Khobai, 03 May 2017 - 09:26 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 03 May 2017 - 09:22 PM, said:

yes they are. they get artemis built in for free at no tonnage/critslot cost.

i know but im saying that having Artimis isnt a Benefit to them, as they already have it,
and if ATMs have more Spread than LRM+A then LRM+A will be better than ATMs past 270,

as an LRM20+A = 6Tons + 5Crits for 20Damage @ 180m-1000m,
where as ATM9 = 5Tons + 4Crits for 18Damage @ 270m-450m / 9Damage @ 451m-810m,

[mike29tw]

Khobai, on 03 May 2017 - 09:22 PM, said:

yes they are. they get artemis built in for free at no tonnage/critslot cost.

the reason theyre inferior to lrms isnt lack of artemis

its 1) lower missile count so ams wrecks them, 2) cant indirect fire like lrms, 3) weigh a whole lot more than lrms (a measly ATM6 is equal to an LRM15 for tonnage)

unless ATMs do absolutely crushing damage in short range, they are inferior to LRMs in virtually every way. but the min range is going to prevent that. which is why the min range makes no sense.

Not sure if I remember this correctly, but each missile is supposed to have its own health right?

If that's the case, PGI could increase ATM's missile health so it takes more AMS shot to destroy one. That's one way to balance it.

[Khobai]

Quote

If that's the case, PGI could increase ATM's missile health so it takes more AMS shot to destroy one. That's one way to balance it.

yeah if they gave each ATM 2-2.5 health instead of 1 health and if they got rid of the dumb min range. Then maybe ATMs could be equal to LRMs. But thats still not saying a whole lot because LRMs are pretty bad.

[El Bandito]

Andi Nagasia, on 03 May 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

but this will also lead to much more Diversity with ATMs which isnt intended with it in Lore,
this also makes it hard to balance, as how do you make 3 damage less powerful at short range,
wail also making 1damage at long range viable, this is the problem making it all 1 ammo type makes,

ATM is supposed to be diverse. The weapon pays for the diversity through bigger tonnage, slots, and fewer amount of ammo. There are other variables PGI can fiddle with, alongside damage, for balance. Spread, tracking strength, range, etc... Dev stream did say that they were also considering minimum arming range.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 May 2017 - 09:53 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

El Bandito, on 03 May 2017 - 09:51 PM, said:

ATM is supposed to be diverse. The weapon pays for the diversity through bigger tonnage, slots, and fewer amount of ammo. There are other variables PGI can fiddle with, alongside damage, for balance. Spread, tracking strength, range, etc... Dev stream did say that they were also considering minimum arming range.

what worries me is that, that having extra diversity that ATMs will gain by having all Ammo Types rolled into one,
will cost the ATMs Min Range(which would hurt their 3Dam mode) and their Ammo Count(which will hurt the 2 others)
also the 2 other Ammo Types are inferior to LRM+A if PGI makes the Spread of ATMs more than LRMs,

[Khobai]

Quote

what worries me is that, that having extra diversity that ATMs will gain by having all Ammo Types rolled into one,
will cost the ATMs Min Range(which would hurt their 3Dam mode) and their Ammo Count(which will hurt the 2 others)
also the 2 other Ammo Types are inferior to LRM+A if PGI makes the Spread of ATMs more than LRMs,

But LRMs are bad, and ATMs based off what we know are worse than LRMs, so why would ATMs be too good?

Honestly im far more worried about ATMs not even being minimally viable, than them being too good.

They sound like utter garbage to me. Twice the weight of LRMs with less than half the number of missiles. No indirect fire. And their only real advantage over LRMs is hampered by a minimum range? And theyre still hard countered by ECM.

Also when has versatility ever been rewarded in this game? This game rewards specialization. So even if ATMs were able to perfectly blend SRM and LRM into one package they would still be inferior to SRM boats at short range and inferior to LRM boats at long range. The only time ATMs would be superior is in an engagement where youre able to use them to good effect at both short and long range... which would require a more fluid style of play compared to how most people play now.

But of course that all assumes ECM stealth is removed. Because as long as ECM hard counters missiles then whats the point?

Edited by Khobai, 03 May 2017 - 10:39 PM.

[Ced Riggs]

Andi Nagasia, on 03 May 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?

Missing the mark and since you seem to offer no option to pick mixed ammo loadouts, nor is MWO capable of handling multiple ammo types for one weapon (See Clan LBX & slugs), this entire idea is a stillborn. RIP.

[The6thMessenger]

I think i'm already okay with PGI's current damage drop-off by range. Close range, you deal 3 damage, mid range you deal 2 damage, and long range you deal 1 damage. It simplifies ATM, as opposed of changing ammo on the fly.

I get that shooting ATMs where it only deals 1 damage per missile is dreadfully inefficient, but at least you can deal damage at all. Sarna defined the ATM ER and Standard missiles as multi-staged, so what if it flies faster when out of short-range? Faster than LRMs too.

[LordNothing]

judging by how mechanics light the new weapons are going to be, i very much doubt were getting ammo switch.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 03 May 2017 - 10:26 PM, said:

Also when has versatility ever been rewarded in this game? This game rewards specialization. So even if ATMs were able to perfectly blend SRM and LRM into one package they would still be inferior to SRM boats at short range and inferior to LRM boats at long range. The only time ATMs would be superior is in an engagement where youre able to use them to good effect at both short and long range... which would require a more fluid style of play compared to how most people play now.

That's not bad at all. With ATM one can be sure that ammo would be used up by the end of the match, and maps will play less part in how screwed you are.

[Shifty McSwift]

Andi Nagasia, on 03 May 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks

My first thought is, what happens when a player takes a mix of ammo and say a single launcher, how will it decide which ammo to use first? Conceptually I think you would need 3 different launchers that slot each different ammo or it immediately encounters an issue that no other gun in the game has.

[Khobai]

Quote

My first thought is, what happens when a player takes a mix of ammo and say a single launcher, how will it decide which ammo to use first? Conceptually I think you would need 3 different launchers that slot each different ammo or it immediately encounters an issue that no other gun in the game has.

well logically it should start with long range ammo first

but its really a non issue since we know ammo switching isnt happening and that atms will have one ammo type

[drifter bob]

Andi Nagasia, on 03 May 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

what if instead of blending all 3 ammo types into one,
with (120-270 = 3Dam)(271-450 = 2Dam)(451-810 = 1Dam)
with a supposed min range of 120(PGI Civil War new Tech Talk Video)


why not make each ammo type an Upgrade like Artimis?
if you have ATM Equipped the Grayed out ATM Upgrade Section can be selected,
of which you can choose the 1 of the 3 ATM Ammo Types,

could we do this for lbx?

Edited by drifter bob, 04 May 2017 - 12:52 AM.