110 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Currently Ferro only gives Weight Savings by reducing the Weight of Armor,
(IS-Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 12%, & takes up 14Crits)
(IS-Light Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 6%, & takes up 7Crits)
(Clan-Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 20%, & takes up 7Crits)

on a 100Mech with Max Armor,
IS-Ferro will save around 2Tons, where as Clan-Ferro will save 3.2Tons,
how ever for the same Crit Demand Endo will save a 100Ton Mech 5Tons,

so as Ferro only is an Inferior Weight Saving tool to Endo,
its not often Taken as Endo is better, also IS-Ferro is Inferior to Clan Ferro,
this i feel is a problem, that we can look at and work to Fix,


How i would Fix this Problem?
=Ferro Extra Armor Concept=
this Idea give Ferro a Bonus that not only does it reduce Armor Weight,
it would also increase the Maximum Armor to the Ferro Equipped Mech can Equip,
(this is an increase to a Mechs Max Armor, to be Balanced by Armors Weight)

IS-Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 12%, & takes up 14Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 24% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +24CT Armor(36Armor=1Ton)

IS-LightFerro reduced Armor Weight by 6%, & takes up 7Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 12% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +12CT Armor(34Armor=1Ton)

Clan-Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 20%, & takes up 7Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 10% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +10CT Armor(38Armor=1Ton)

=Note=
80Ton Assault Mech Example is only an Example, and not Locked to the mechs CT,
Ferro Max Armor Increase would be Global and added to all Locations on the Mech,

this would mean Taking Ferro would allow you to Equip More Armor but at a Cost of Weight,
(an AS7 MaxArmor +Ferro will save 2Tons, but will Spend 4Tons to get to its new Max Armor)
this would move Ferro away from Just another Weight Saving tool, one thats inferior to Endo,
to an Upgrade all its own, one that is Taken for the purpose of Making a Mech more Tanky,


this would help make Ferro a Choice for BattleMechs for both sides,
wail also balancing Clan Ferro Advantages to IS Ferro Advantages,
as well as help OmniMechs that have Locked Ferro but no Endo,
it will also help IS Mech Survivability and give Players Choice,

=(POLL)=

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 14 July 2017 - 11:35 AM.

[Grus]

I'm gonna bring out the lore hammer here, why would clan Ferro be inferior to IS?

[Andi Nagasia]

Grus, on 13 July 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

I'm gonna bring out the lore hammer here, why would clan Ferro be inferior to IS?

it wouldnt be, it would still give its Lore, 20%Armor Weight Savings(8%over IS)
it would just have something that is better than it in another non Weight Savings area,
theirs nothing in Lore that say Clan Ferro is 100% better than IS-Ferro in every way,

[davoodoo]

I see no problem, i still pack ferro when i need extra weight savintgs, like for pretty every mech under 45 tons.

Not every option needs to be universally used.

Edited by davoodoo, 13 July 2017 - 03:01 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

davoodoo, on 13 July 2017 - 03:00 PM, said:

I see no problem, i still pack ferro when i need extra weight savintgs, like for pretty every mech under 45 tons.

the idea would be making it more of a Choice for Medium to Assault Mechs that need Crits,
do you want Good Weight Savings(Endo), or Minor Weight Savings with Bonus Armor(Ferro)
making Ferro a Choice, because right now theirs no reason to take Ferro over Endo,

[Alcom Isst]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 July 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

its not often Taken as Endo is better, also IS-Ferro is Inferior to Clan Ferro,
this i feel is a problem, that we can look at and work to Fix,

This is a problem how? What is MWO missing by having be weaker than Endo?

Edited by Alcom Isst, 13 July 2017 - 03:04 PM.

[Baulven]

Grus, on 13 July 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

I'm gonna bring out the lore hammer here, why would clan Ferro be inferior to IS?

Because lore will never balance a multiplayer game in any meaningful way. It's like the IS XL vs CXL will never be balanced because of pinpoint damage and the lack of engine crits.

Without RNG having things inherently inferior on one side is difficult at best, though in some cases could be balanced. Something inferior in every way does not work like that (technically IS XL could either be two sides to die or have the same armor as CT in the ST to mitigate the weakness.)

[Monkey Lover]

I think this would be a good idea depending on how IS /clan balance is after the new tech.

[Andi Nagasia]

Alcom Isst, on 13 July 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

This is a problem how? What is MWO missing by having Ferro be weaker than Endo?

because i Feel all Equipment should be a Viable Choice, because Balance,
and some mechs(Omnis) dont have the choice and are stuck with just Ferro,

[Brain Cancer]

Ferro-fibrous was never intended to be "equal" to endosteel in any way, shape or form.

It exists because it's a deliberately inferior but available option for more units than BattleMechs, and also as a cheap and easy method of upgrading that doesn't require a factory refit.

Quote

I'm gonna bring out the lore hammer here, why would clan Ferro be inferior to IS?

Because in PGI's magical world, all tech trees must be as equal as possible. Since Clan FFA is 7 spaces, it therefore should be equal to IS LFFA (which is also 7 spaces).

[Alcom Isst]

Monkey Lover, on 13 July 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

I think this would be a good idea depending on how IS /clan balance is after the new tech.

Even if New Tech horrifically unbalances the game in favor of IS, there will absolutely be more graceful ways to rebalance the game without involving Fearow.

[davoodoo]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 July 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

the idea would be making it more of a Choice for Medium to Assault Mechs that need Crits,
do you want Good Weight Savings(Endo), or Minor Weight Savings with Bonus Armor(Ferro)
making Ferro a Choice, because right now theirs no reason to take Ferro over Endo,

Like i said, i see no reason to change that.

Also despite that i really despise idea of reducing firepower in favor of extra armor just to be a shield ***** for the rest of the team.
This is assault battlemech not walking brick.

Edited by davoodoo, 13 July 2017 - 03:09 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Monkey Lover, on 13 July 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

I think this would be a good idea depending on how IS /clan balance is after the new tech.

agreed, as with the IS-Light Ferro vs C-Ferro balance,
both are 7Crits, C-Ferro has more weight savings but less bonus Armor,
where as IS-Light-Ferro has less weight savings but more bonus Armor,

[Alcom Isst]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 July 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

because i Feel all Equipment should be a Viable Choice, because Balance,
and some mechs(Omnis) dont have the choice and are stuck with just Ferro,

It is a viable choice for all IS lights and some IS mediums, and omni mechs have other more interesting attributes for balancing. Mission accomplished!

Edited by Alcom Isst, 13 July 2017 - 03:11 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Alcom Isst, on 13 July 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

Even if New Tech horrifically unbalances the game in favor of IS, there will absolutely be more graceful ways to rebalance the game without involving Fearow.

I don't mind the idea of making ferro worth a little more to take. It's not really anything that major. Being an armor buff isn't a bad waytoo. I think it's better than being a tonnage buff as we don't need more power creep.
I just don't want to buff all IS mechs to the point they start removing armor quirks off the low end IS mechs and leaving the tier1 mechs alone.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Grus, on 13 July 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

I'm gonna bring out the lore hammer here, why would clan Ferro be inferior to IS?

Because balance >>> all in a PVP game.

[Pjwned]

Giving weight savings and free armor would make it WAY too good though. You would just be making endo steel the inferior choice by doing that and it'd be back to pretty much the same situation as it is now, along with introducing some pretty undesirable power creep.

It would be like DHS vs SHS where SHS can be more useful in extreme edge cases, but otherwise DHS is way more useful, except here it would be ferro vs endo; I guess that would be a very slight improvement over 1 upgrade being objectively inferior in every way but it's just silly to settle for that when it could easily be more balanced.

All ferro needs to do is raise the armor cap so that you have the option of increasing armor further, or not increasing armor and keeping the weight savings, or having a bit of both; that would be fine and give ferro a useful niche.

[Grus]

Arggg I hate that! "Because #balance" it's such a cop out saying. I'll say this then put the Lore Hammer down.

In no way shape or form clan stuff shouldn't be inferior to IS stuff. If PGI wanted "balance they would have imposed population limits on the clan side for faction warfare and set a system for BATCHALL rewards for coming in underweight. But what we have now is a Battletech "themed" game, maybe that's too good, "skinned" seems more appropriate.

Ok it's away. So I understand that rng plays a part in this and I DO NOT want a WoT cone of maybe, but come on..

Edited by Grus, 13 July 2017 - 03:17 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Grus, on 13 July 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

Arggg I hate that! "Because #balance" it's such a cop out saying.

It's no more a cop out than "because lore" so... yeah...

[Andi Nagasia]

Pjwned, on 13 July 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

Giving weight savings and free armor would make it WAY too good though. You would just be making endo steel the inferior choice by doing that and it'd be back to pretty much the same situation as it is now, along with introducing some pretty undesirable power creep.

All ferro needs to do is raise the armor cap so that you have the option of increasing armor further, or not increasing armor and keeping the weight savings, or having a bit of both; that would be fine and give ferro a useful niche.

well Armor Values can always be changed or even halved if necessary,
but i really dont think +24CT Armor will really break the game on a 80Ton mech,
especially if they are giving up Endo and taking lighter weapons to get that armor,