110 replies to this topic

[Jay Leon Hart]

Grus, on 13 July 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

In no way shape or form clan stuff shouldn't be inferior to IS stuff.

So, without using "because lore", why should IS tech not be better?

[davoodoo]

Jay Leon Hart, on 13 July 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

So, without using "because lore", why should IS tech not be better?

Because lore isnt reason enough?

[Andi Nagasia]

Grus, on 13 July 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

Arggg I hate that! "Because #balance" it's such a cop out saying. I'll say this then put the Lore Hammer down.

um, not really constructive, because Lore is fine, but Balance should be most improtant,
we should all want a balanced game, because its not very fair or fun if one side has all the advantages,

Grus, on 13 July 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

In no way shape or form clan stuff shouldn't be inferior to IS stuff. If PGI wanted "balance they would have imposed population limits on the clan side for faction warfare and set a system for BATCHALL rewards for coming in underweight. But what we have now is a Battletech "themed" game, maybe that's too good, "skinned" seems more appropriate.

this is a BattleTech game, its not Themed or Skinned, it is a BattleTech Game no matter how any of us Feel,
no system PGI could put forth would have been able to balance TT Clan vs IS in this FPS shooter,

Grus, on 13 July 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

Ok it's away. So I understand that rng plays a part in this and I DO NOT want a WoT cone of maybe, but come on..

you could say IS Ferro is now better than Clan Ferro,
but C-Ferro still has almost double Weight savings at half the Size, IS Ferro just has a Side Bonus now,
and C-Ferro vs IS-Light Ferro? 2%Less Armor for having more than 3x the Weight Savings?

[Jay Leon Hart]

davoodoo, on 13 July 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

Because lore isnt reason enough?

If balance isn't reason enough, then neither is lore.

[Grus]

Because instead of improving their mech's and putting a big effort into R&d the freebirth were content with just blowing another away back into the stone age. Where as for the clan perfected this weapons and tech.

[Grus]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 July 2017 - 03:25 PM, said:

you could say IS Ferro is now better than Clan Ferro,
but C-Ferro still has almost double Weight savings at half the Size, IS Ferro just has a Side Bonus now,
and C-Ferro vs IS-Light Ferro? 2%Less Armor for having more than 3x the Weight Savings?

ok I'll dive down that hole, why do I think this isn't "fair" is the fact that right now in FP IS can, and does, drop 2 waves of 100 ton mech's and clan can't. So if this is put into effect not only will be have a weight disadvantage we will have a armor one too. So explain how that's "balanced".

[Composite Armour]

I think only full IS ferro should give the armour bonus, LFF should be buffed to the weight savings of IS ferro and no change to clan ferro, they don't need it.

[Pjwned]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 July 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

well Armor Values can always be changed or even halved if necessary,
but i really dont think +24CT Armor will really break the game on a 80Ton mech,
especially if they are giving up Endo and taking lighter weapons to get that armor,

The problem is that when you're talking about keeping the weight savings and then also giving double that amount in free armor, you're effectively saving more weight than endo.

Example time:

• 80 ton mech (Awesome) with maxed out armor and no upgrades has 56.56 tons left over
  
• Endo steel structure saves 4 tons here, so with endo it would be 60.56 tons left over.
  
• Ferro fibrous armor saves 1.65 tons with maxed out armor, so with ferro (and no endo) you have 58.21 tons left over, but if you add in double that amount of free armor you're talking about 3.3 tons, and if you add 3.3 tons of free armor on top of 1.65 tons for extra equipment you end up with effectively 4.95 tons saved, which is a decent amount more tonnage than endo steel saves.

Now to be fair, you're not always going to get a lot of benefit from that extra free armor because it's spread out all over the mech, including on legs or even arms that are unimportant (either because they don't get get hit or it doesn't matter much if they're destroyed), but that's still quite a bit of benefit there just for 1 upgrade.

I still think it would be better to just raise the armor cap and not give any free armor, because extra survivability like that is pretty valuable and it could also get a little out of hand when combined with armor hardening in the skill tree, but if ferro had to be buffed like that then it could just give only as much free armor as it saves in weight--so that in the example above it would effectively save 3.3 tons--and that would be not as crazy good; I still don't like that though.

[El Bandito]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 July 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

IS-Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 12%, & takes up 14Crits,
it also gives 24% Free Armor to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) would gain +24CT Armor)

IS-LightFerro reduced Armor Weight by 6%, & takes up 7Crits,
it also gives 12% Free Armor to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) would gain +12CT Armor)

Clan-Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 20%, & takes up 7Crits,
it also gives 10% Free Armor to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) would gain +10CT Armor)

this would help make Ferro a Choice for BattleMechs for both sides,
wail also balancing Clan Ferro Advantages to IS Ferro Advantages,
as well as help OmniMechs that have Locked Ferro but no Endo,
it will also help IS Mech Survivability and give Players Choice,

I support it. Made a post proposing such changes for IS and Clan Ferro before. Of course, the values would need to be tweaked at, but the ratio itself seems fine. This would also help the IS mechs to be less dependent on quirks.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 July 2017 - 05:16 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Composite Armour, on 13 July 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

I think only full IS ferro should give the armour bonus, LFF should be buffed to the weight savings of IS ferro and no change to clan ferro, they don't need it.

Personally i would like to see all IS-Ferro Doubled(Ferro = 24%Weight Savings)(LightFerro = 12%Weight Savings)
but as last time i ran that topic i was told it would go against TT, and Lore, so those Stats need to stay,
so thats why im working with this new idea to work around stats given in TT, to keep with Lore,

[Khobai]

Quote

'm gonna bring out the lore hammer here, why would clan Ferro be inferior to IS?

This.

If you want people to use ferro the best way is to buff standard structure.

if people have a reason to use standard structure theyll use ferro simply because they cant use endo.

Quote

Personally i would like to see all IS-Ferro Doubled(Ferro = 24%Weight Savings)(LightFerro = 12%Weight Savings)

Again why would IS Ferro give better weight savings than Clan Ferro? That makes no sense.

Besides IS Ferro doesnt need a buff for it to get used. Std Structure needs a buff for IS Ferro to get used. Because if youre using Std Structure, you cant use Endo, so your only other choice for saving weight is then to take IS Ferro.

Therefore:
Std Structure + IS Ferro needs to equal Endo Structure + Std Armor.

If you give Std Structure a 25% bonus internal structure buff thats pretty close to where it needs to be. Std Structure could also give like a 10% critical hit chance reduction as well.

Then theres a reason to use both standard structure AND ferro.

Also clans can benefit from a standard structure buff too, so it doesnt just end up being another nerf to clans.

So its win win win.

Edited by Khobai, 13 July 2017 - 06:36 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Grus, on 13 July 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

ok I'll dive down that hole, why do I think this isn't "fair" is the fact that right now in FP IS can, and does, drop 2 waves of 100 ton mech's and clan can't. So if this is put into effect not only will be have a weight disadvantage we will have a armor one too. So explain how that's "balanced".

im fully expecting Tonnage Limits to be returned to 240 for both sides come Next Patch,
also as FP is only one part of MWO its best to not balance Everything around just that,

[Monkey Lover]

Pjwned, on 13 July 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

The problem is that when you're talking about keeping the weight savings and then also giving double that amount in free armor, you're effectively saving more weight than endo.

Example time:

• 80 ton mech (Awesome) with maxed out armor and no upgrades has 56.56 tons left over
  
• Endo steel structure saves 4 tons here, so with endo it would be 60.56 tons left over.
  
• Ferro fibrous armor saves 1.65 tons with maxed out armor, so with ferro (and no endo) you have 58.21 tons left over, but if you add in double that amount of free armor you're talking about 3.3 tons, and if you add 3.3 tons of free armor on top of 1.65 tons for extra equipment you end up with effectively 4.95 tons saved, which is a decent amount more tonnage than endo steel saves.

Now to be fair, you're not always going to get a lot of benefit from that extra free armor because it's spread out all over the mech, including on legs or even arms that are unimportant (either because they don't get get hit or it doesn't matter much if they're destroyed), but that's still quite a bit of benefit there just for 1 upgrade.



I still think it would be better to just raise the armor cap and not give any free armor, because extra survivability like that is pretty valuable and it could also get a little out of hand when combined with armor hardening in the skill tree, but if ferro had to be buffed like that then it could just give only as much free armor as it saves in weight--so that in the example above it would effectively save 3.3 tons--and that would be not as crazy good; I still don't like that though.

With the system he has now i would still take endo. The small increase in armor hasn't done much with the skill tree. I dont find it very useful on anything but lights. On lights really only the increase in leg matters.

Maybe others would take ferro but if this is the case than its about right.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 13 July 2017 - 06:31 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

With the system he has now i would still take endo.

Yep because buffing ferro isnt the right approach.

Buffing standard structure is the better approach. Because if you buff standard structure, ferro will get used anyway.

Because using standard structure, means you cant use endo anyway, so you now have to use ferro. Its your only choice.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Khobai, on 13 July 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

Yep because buffing ferro isnt the right approach.

Buffing standard structure is the better approach. Because if you buff standard structure, ferro will get used anyway.

Because using standard structure, means you cant use endo anyway, so you now have to use ferro. Its your only choice.

This doesn't address the issue of Clan FF being better than IS FF in every way.

[Khobai]

Quote

This doesn't address the issue of Clan FF being better than IS FF in every way.

Because if you made IS FF as good as Clan FF it would be way better than IS Endo. Which would make IS Endo completely pointless except on light mechs. So you cant really do that...

The best you can do is make std structure + ferro = endo + std armor.


So your three choices would be:

1) take endo and std armor for 14 crits and save 5% tonnage
2) take std structure and ferro for 14 crits and save ~2% tonnage and get 25% internal structure bonus and a 10% crit reduction bonus.
3) take both endo and ferro for 28 crits and save 7% tonnage (really only feasible on lights and some mediums)


That makes standard structure an option, it makes ferro an option, and it doesnt nerf clans again for no reason.

Edited by Khobai, 13 July 2017 - 08:21 PM.

[TheArisen]

Khobai, on 13 July 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

Because if you made IS FF as good as Clan FF it would be way better than IS Endo. Which would make IS Endo completely pointless except on light mechs. So you cant really do that...

The best you can do is make std structure + ferro = endo + std armor.


So your three choices would be:

1) take endo and std armor for 14 crits and save 5% tonnage
2) take std structure and ferro for 14 crits and save ~2% tonnage and get 25% internal structure bonus and a 10% crit reduction bonus.
3) take both endo and ferro for 28 crits and save 7% tonnage (really only feasible on lights and some mediums)


That makes standard structure an option, it makes ferro an option, and it doesnt nerf clans again for no reason.

Honestly it's the same idea just applied differently. Both ideas have pros and cons over the other. At the very least both should be tested on the PTS.

[Khobai]

the option that doesnt nerf clans is the better one IMO

I mean how many times are you gonna keep nerfing clans. enough is !@#$ing enough.

[Andi Nagasia]

Pjwned, on 13 July 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

The problem is that when you're talking about keeping the weight savings and then also giving double that amount in free armor, you're effectively saving more weight than endo.

Example time:

• 80 ton mech (Awesome) with maxed out armor and no upgrades has 56.56 tons left over
  
• Endo steel structure saves 4 tons here, so with endo it would be 60.56 tons left over.
  
• Ferro fibrous armor saves 1.65 tons with maxed out armor, so with ferro (and no endo) you have 58.21 tons left over, but if you add in double that amount of free armor you're talking about 3.3 tons, and if you add 3.3 tons of free armor on top of 1.65 tons for extra equipment you end up with effectively 4.95 tons saved, which is a decent amount more tonnage than endo steel saves.

Now to be fair, you're not always going to get a lot of benefit from that extra free armor because it's spread out all over the mech, including on legs or even arms that are unimportant (either because they don't get get hit or it doesn't matter much if they're destroyed), but that's still quite a bit of benefit there just for 1 upgrade.




I still think it would be better to just raise the armor cap and not give any free armor, because extra survivability like that is pretty valuable and it could also get a little out of hand when combined with armor hardening in the skill tree, but if ferro had to be buffed like that then it could just give only as much free armor as it saves in weight--so that in the example above it would effectively save 3.3 tons--and that would be not as crazy good; I still don't like that though.

so your saying

Quote

IS-Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 12%, & takes up 14Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 24% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +24CT Armor(36Armor=1Ton)

IS-LightFerro reduced Armor Weight by 6%, & takes up 7Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 12% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +12CT Armor(34Armor=1Ton)

Clan-Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 20%, & takes up 7Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 10% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +10CT Armor(38Armor=1Ton)

ok i can see how this could help with some Balancing problems,
and Players can Choose how much Armor they want to Equip and where they want to Equip it,
i guess that could work, but id have to get abit more feed back on this before making a final decision,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 13 July 2017 - 09:16 PM.

[LordNothing]

light ferro might see some use in situations where i have a bunch of empty crits and would like to use them to free a little more tonnage, stack on a little more armor or run a slightly larger engine. il use std ferro when i can, usually reserved for light mechs with terrible hardpoints. that said std is ferro is terrible. it eats up a whopping 14 crits and doesnt even do the same job as the clan versison that uses half the crits. so its going to be the last upgrade i use.

as for how to fix, id just say make the ferro up the armor ceiling as well on the is side. give the light ferro a 4% armor ceiling buff, and the standard gets a 8% ceiling buff. note that ceiling buff only changes the maximum and you still have to put the tonnage into armor to fill it up. so its not free armor.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 July 2017 - 11:20 PM.