81 replies to this topic

[Antares102]

Prosperity Park, on 15 July 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

I don't understand how a 6 ton, 60damag alpha is "worthless" or "non-viable"

As it stands HML have a GH of 4 so to do 60 dmg your abyssmal duration of 1.45s is extended by another 0.5 sec.
Actually if the HML had a GH limit of 6 I would consider them viable for several builds.

Edited by Antares102, 15 July 2017 - 10:11 AM.

[JadePanther]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

im saying HLL should be buffed so it just barely outperforms LPL

HLL is inferior to LPL currently

im agreeing with you



the HLL needs to individually outperform the LPL or theres no reason to use it even on mechs that lack energy hardpoints.

while LPL will always have a use in laser vomit builds. LPL doesnt need to be a niche weapon for mechs with limited energy hardpoints. HLL needs that niche though, its the only thing it can potentially be good at.

there needs to be something that makes HLL a choice over LPL in some situations.. Currently there is none.. LPL has better efficency, range (optimal), duration, cooldown, slots.. Theres not much reason to take HLL over LPL unless you have tons of space, little tonnage, and few hardpoints, of which really only means some of the lighter mechs that just wont beable to deal with the heat large heavy weapons put out..

If HLL had better duration maybe it might be worth it as a close range heavy hitter with LPLs better suited for longer ranged engagements..

[Weeny Machine]

I used the heavy meds on an ACH on the PTS. It was really nice when you know how to position well. To be more precise: it is a good weapon for a light mech to open the fat cans like heavies and assaults. It is much less useful against agile targets. However, since each and every has a fetish for heavies...hehe *pew, pew*

[Widowmaker1981]

Clownwarlord, on 15 July 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

Its meh, for example some mechs will have a use for them but they necessarily will not be boat-able. Example on some of the mediums as mentioned above like the shadow cat will use them to great effect. Two or three heavy large lasers and just manage your heat with them should be better than using clan large pulse lasers.

Nah, HLLs are not a Scat thing, in my opinion anyway.

2xLPL is far more manageable heat wise than 2xHLL + 4 DHS (20 heat 14 DHS vs 34 heat 18 DHS), it has considerably longer effective range and much lower duration.. on a mech as squishy as the Scatman, thats a no brainer... and imo 2xERPPC is vastly superior to 2xLPL anyway.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Prosperity Park, on 15 July 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

I don't understand how a 6 ton, 60damag alpha is "worthless" or "non-viable"

Well it is because the game isn't all about alpha, you have factors like sustainability, concentration of damage and face time requirements to consider as well.

First, because alpha is all well and good when you can actually apply all your damage to one section of the enemy mech. With the beam duration on heavy lasers, in a typical situation your really going to be scattering your damage all over everywhere when firing.

Second also has to do with beam duration. While your firing that 60 point Alpha, your having to stand there exposed to do it which means your a big, fat juicy target for any enemy that sees you.

So yeah on paper the damage you can do with heavy lasers seems impressive but in practice, it doesn't work quite a well as it sounds.

[Mcgral18]

Overall, they should be adequate
HSLs being very bad on the PTS, probably will still ignore them.
HLLs, you need 20+ DHS for pairs, but HLL and other lasers (like HLL+HML on a Sadcat with MGs, or 18 DHS HLL 2ERML) bump up poor hardpoint counts.


HLL now has higher Dam/tick than the CLPL, so mix it in with other vomit for large amounts of damage on single locations
Duration still has a factor, but you'll out-damage anything trying to continue their own durations (isLPL aside)

Prosperity Park, on 15 July 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

I don't understand how a 6 ton, 60damag alpha is "worthless" or "non-viable"

Because GH


8 on Mr Gargles was adequate, IMO

The long cooldowns make it a poor choice on him, IMO, because of his Navel Cannons meaning you need to expose, but you can't DPS while exposed.
Should farm Potatos, though

JadePanther, on 15 July 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

there needs to be something that makes HLL a choice over LPL in some situations.. Currently there is none.. LPL has better efficency, range (optimal), duration, cooldown, slots.. Theres not much reason to take HLL over LPL unless you have tons of space, little tonnage, and few hardpoints, of which really only means some of the lighter mechs that just wont beable to deal with the heat large heavy weapons put out..

If HLL had better duration maybe it might be worth it as a close range heavy hitter with LPLs better suited for longer ranged engagements..

It's a 6 ton weapon VS a 4 ton weapon
It shouldn't exactly be superior

It also DOES have higher Dam/tick, BTW
It deals more damage in the same 1.09s period of time
For extreme amounts of heat and less DPS

Widowmaker1981, on 15 July 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

Nah, HLLs are not a Scat thing, in my opinion anyway.

2xLPL is far more manageable heat wise than 2xHLL + 4 DHS (20 heat 14 DHS vs 34 heat 18 DHS), it has considerably longer effective range and much lower duration.. on a mech as squishy as the Scatman, thats a no brainer... and imo 2xERPPC is vastly superior to 2xLPL anyway.

HLL and 2 ERMLs, for 32 damage
You can fit 18 DHS ECM and a TC1
Ranges mesh


Though, I'm more partial to a HLL, HML (or ERML?) and 6 MGs of choice
ECM isn't worth much, but those MGs are pretty nasty.

[Paigan]

Prosperity Park, on 15 July 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

I don't understand how a 6 ton, 60damag alpha is "worthless" or "non-viable"

Then I suggest reading the arguments presented here and trying to grasp them.
You are insulting yourself with such a statement.

[JadePanther]

Mcgral18, on 15 July 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

It also DOES have higher Dam/tick, BTW
It deals more damage in the same 1.09s period of time
For extreme amounts of heat and less DPS

0.6 damage per duration difference is not much to write home about.. Especially when you are spending 7 more heat to do it and have to be 150m closer. If i'm spending 7 extra heat i'd expect to get alot more bang for the buck..

HLL's are really only gonna be helpful for killing blow shots after a target has been sofened up.. that or with gauss and/or MLs for DPS..

[Felicitatem Parco]

Okay, I forgot the GH limit of 4.

So... 4 tons, 40 damage for a tonnage-strapped mech? Still a good deal.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 15 July 2017 - 10:34 AM.

[Escef]

Prosperity Park, on 15 July 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

Okay, I forgot the GH limit of 4.

So... 4 tons, 40 damage for a tonnage-strapped mech? Still a good deal.

Not a bad option for back up guns on a long range specialist, or for a light that specializes in big game hunting. Not main gun material, but that's what everyone wants: flashy new main guns.

[Antares102]

Well I have to admit where I will put HML will be the ACH-Shard with 8x MG + 2xHML resulting in 10 sustained DPS. The HML are for getting rid of assault back armor and the MGs do finish the job.

Edited by Antares102, 15 July 2017 - 12:50 PM.

[SuperFunkTron]

davoodoo, on 15 July 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

pts was 4v4.

Sure if i can go 1v1 then superior damage will usually win.

Now throw 4-6 mechs following that mech in normal 12v12. This is where long duration and cooldown become problem.

Any situation where you are poorly positioning yourself to have 4-6 mechs following you is a bad situation regardless of your weapon load. Further, if your team is doing nothing to take advantage of such an effective distraction, then there is nothing to be done anyways. Aside from the Nova and Warhawk examples, consider how hard mechs like the Ice-Ferret can hit and run with 4 HML or HSLs. Yes, these may not be the ultimate damage/heat/second weapons, but if they are used intelligently or added as a compliment to better dps weapons, then you can create really effective builds. The Civil War Gargoyle builds only have the addition of one or two new weapons but are a huge improvement. Everyone has a different taste, but to write off an entire system because it doesn't suit certain stats that please you is only going to benefit those who know how to take advantage of them.

[LordNothing]

i like the heavy medium for use on lights. you can really stack a high alpha on a small mech with only a few hard points. i will be chewing up back armor with the things.

Antares102, on 15 July 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

Well I have to admit where I will put HML will be the ACH-Shard with 8x MG + 2xHML resulting in 10 sustained DPS. The HML are for getting rig of assault back armor and the MGs do finish the job.

did this on a viper and it was sweet.

[The Mysterious Fox]

interesting to see how they work out on tonnage scarce mechs like the gargoyle or executioner

[Antares102]

The Mysterious Fox, on 15 July 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

interesting to see how they work out on tonnage scarce mechs like the gargoyle or executioner

On Mr. Gargles they might be ok, but on the Exe which is also slot starved they wont work.

[Escef]

Antares102, on 15 July 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

On Mr. Gargles they might be ok, but on the Exe which is also slot starved they wont work.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...633c212ea958931

Replace the arm lasers with HMLs... Might work, might not.

[Antares102]

Escef, on 15 July 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...633c212ea958931

Replace the arm lasers with HMLs... Might work, might not.

Ok point for you. This might work, but the face time will stil be abyssmal.
However... I am too stupid to play with 3 weapon groups
So it wont work for me.

[Mcgral18]

Escef, on 15 July 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...633c212ea958931

Replace the arm lasers with HMLs... Might work, might not.

I'd say too hot

I had I think 26 on Mr Gargles, and it was still toasty...without any LPLs

[Khobai]

Quote

If HLL had better duration maybe it might be worth it as a close range heavy hitter with LPLs better suited for longer ranged engagements..

It already does better damage per tick than a LPL. duration aint the problem.

the problem is twofold. 1) 17 heat lololol and 2) 5.75 cooldown lololol

those are the two reasons it cant compete with the better efficiency and dps of LPL.

HLL needs its heat reduced to 15-15.5 heat. And it needs 0.25s-0.5s shaved off its cooldown.

Quote

I don't understand how a 6 ton, 60damag alpha is "worthless" or "non-viable"

because clan mechs dont lack for tonnage, they lack for crit slots, and they cant really use anymore extra tonnage if they run out of crit slots. thats why the concept of a high damage lightweight laser that takes up more critslots kindve falls through the cracks.

the only real use for such a laser is when energy hardpoints are severely limited. But as of right now the LPL is still a better option when thats the case. So the HLL has to be individually or in pairs better than the LPL or theres no reason to use it instead of a LPL. While the LPL should be better as part of a laser vomit alpha.

Edited by Khobai, 15 July 2017 - 01:05 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

It already does better damage per tick than a LPL. duration aint the problem.

the problem is twofold. 1) 17 heat lololol and 2) 5.75 cooldown lololol

those are the two reasons it cant compete with the better efficiency and dps of LPL.

HLL needs its heat reduced to 15-15.5 heat. And it needs 0.25s-0.5s shaved off its cooldown.



because clan mechs dont lack for tonnage, they lack for crit slots, and they cant really use anymore extra tonnage if they run out of crit slots. thats why the concept of a high damage lightweight laser that takes up more critslots kindve falls through the cracks.

the only real use for such a laser is when energy hardpoints are severely limited. But as of right now the LPL is still a better option when thats the case. So the HLL has to be individually or in pairs better than the LPL or theres no reason to use it instead of a LPL. While the LPL should be better as part of a laser vomit alpha.

Plenty of Light Mechs lack tonnage, and 4 tons is only 66% the weight of a LPL... I could have a single LPL, or 6 ERML, or a HLL and 2 HML... or 6 HML or 4 HML and 2 DHS... Or just a single LPL.

I do like fringe cases like the 6MG + 1 Energy shadowcat, or the kitfox purifier with the 4 highpoints, or the ice ferret and other mechs that are short on Hardpoints.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 15 July 2017 - 05:42 PM.