55 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

Clownwarlord, on 15 July 2017 - 07:08 AM, said:

The only reason why Davions and HHOD are viewed negatively is because of Novakaine, where your lurms at buddy?

much love Nova

Mrms are so bad lrms might start being looked at as good weapons

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2017 - 01:50 AM, said:

Since most players play IS and Clan mechs alike, I want the base tech to be equal in competence. Many Clanners take offense to that.

This is exactly the kind of thing the OP is talking about. I've argued with you on many balance points before, I also play the merc life and use both tech's mechs, but my opinion on balance between the factions is very different from yours. I'd also like the tech bases to be equal, but I find that many IS players don't make proper use of all the quirks, and optimal builds that they should, and thus you have people who find they can't beat clanners at range, or out brawl them up close because they're neither using the quirked ERLL builds or the quirked super armor brawling builds.

[El Bandito]

Dakota1000, on 15 July 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

This is exactly the kind of thing the OP is talking about. I've argued with you on many balance points before, I also play the merc life and use both tech's mechs, but my opinion on balance between the factions is very different from yours. I'd also like the tech bases to be equal, but I find that many IS players don't make proper use of all the quirks, and optimal builds that they should, and thus you have people who find they can't beat clanners at range, or out brawl them up close because they're neither using the quirked ERLL builds or the quirked super armor brawling builds.

Current IS reliance on quirks is detrimental to balance. Many IS weapons/equipment are deliberately kept sub-par due to quirks--which is not how one should balance. Balance base tech first, then use quirks on the under performers. So simple, even a child can see the logic behind that.

So Clanners should stop bringing up IS quirks when trying to balance base tech. Once balance is achieved, many of those quirks will be naturally removed or reduced.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 July 2017 - 08:09 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

Current IS reliance on quirk is detrimental to balance. Many IS weapons/equipment are deliberately kept sub-par due to quirks--which is not how one should balance. Balance base tech first, then use quirks on the under performers. So simple, even a child can see the logic behind that.

Yes, but one must base their plans in the reality of the situation. PGI has opted to give all IS mechs quirks across the board, even chassis that have top grade hardpoint positions and builds available. Until I see PGI remove all the quirks and only give them to bad mechs that need it I will continue to base my balance decisions on the current system. Its a case of fixing what we have rather than starting over from scratch, simply because I don't see PGI doing the work required to start over after investing so heavily in the quirk system.

[El Bandito]

Dakota1000, on 15 July 2017 - 08:11 AM, said:

Yes, but one must base their plans in the reality of the situation. PGI has opted to give all IS mechs quirks across the board, even chassis that have top grade hardpoint positions and builds available. Until I see PGI remove all the quirks and only give them to bad mechs that need it I will continue to base my balance decisions on the current system.

That's cause even the most optimal IS mechs STILL need quirks to stay competitive against quirkless top Clan mechs. How the heck do you expect PGI to just remove those quirks from the IS side without balancing base tech at the same time? That's illogical.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 July 2017 - 08:17 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

That's cause even the most optimal IS mechs STILL need quirks to stay competitive against quirkless top Clan mechs. How the heck do you expect PGI to just remove those quirks from the IS side without balancing base tech at the same time? That's illogical.

I never said we shouldn't do both at the same time, I just argue against boosting up all the IS weapons without properly taking into account the quirks on each one and cutting them down where needed to account for the weapon changes. Though this also doesn't take into account that IS has a lot of quirks in the defense department rather than offense, giving some difference to the sides.

I don't actually mind quirks myself, I like them and find they add some flavor to the sides. IS gets mechs that are specialized for firepower, some for range, others for heavy defense. You just have to buy the mech for the job you want. If we made IS and Clan weapons equal in a situation without quirks then the IS could quite easily lose the difference in playstyle it has from the clans, as they'd have no need for high defense quirks if they went and brought their offense up to clan levels, it'd be similar to just playing Clan mechs all the time. I never advocate for removing a playstyle to normalize it into another.

[Angel of Annihilation]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2017 - 01:50 AM, said:

Since most players play IS and Clan mechs alike, I want the base tech to be equal in competence. Many Clanners take offense to that.

Your absolutely wrong and here is why it is so difficult for people to come together when there are two opposing sides.

I consider myself to be a complete neutral between Clan and IS balance. Right now I have roughly equal amounts of IS and Clan mechs in my mechbays with I think the edge going to IS mech currently. However I feel like the Clans have been nerfed into the ground and are slowly becoming irrelevant.

I have honestly felt that for the last 6 months at least that aside from a few standout mechs like the KDK-3, that IS and Clan balance felt pretty good. I could jump into either a Clan mech or an IS mech and feel relevant and competitive and my personal stats and performance be it me playing a Marauder IIC or me playing a Battlemaster were similar. Yet each and every major patch the Clans keep getting wacked. First it was the Skill Tree and Engine Desync which totally ruined all KDKs, not just the KDK-3. I own four of them and I don't have one single bit of desire to play them in the current state. Then came the energy re-balance and mobility nerfs which further wacked the clans hard. Now I don't want to play my Night Gyr and can barely bring myself to play one of the 7 Marauder IICs I own not to mention the huge effect losing damage on my LPLs, extended beam duration of my CER MLs and other changes had on ALL my Clan mechs even the underperformers I own. Now we are talking yet another nerf that is increase Heat, Cooldown, etc on CER SL and CER ML, weapons that virtually all my Clan mechs use to some extent and many actually rely on. The heat increase alone is going to break several of my builds on mechs including the Kitfox, Viper, Ice Ferret and Executioner I run.

Then there is the simple fact that come the same patch that is further nerfing the Clans, the IS is getting a huge buff and yes it is a huge buff because I spent 30+ hours on the PTS testing it is became pretty obvious, pretty quickly. Further most of the new IS tech actually got an even further buff between the last PTS and what the current patch notes indicated.

So I am honestly at the point where I am saying WTF, enough is enough. I am beginning to feel like PGI is not working toward balance anymore but rather is just catering to all the people who whine Clans are OP.

So on one hand I am ecstatic all all the goodies and buffage my IS mechs are going to be able to partake in but what about the other 60+ Clan mechs I own? I want to be able to enjoy these too and right now I am starting to not enjoy them at all. In fact I don't think I have dropped more than a dozen times in Clan mechs in the last 2 weeks of play.

So you say Clanners take offense, well I am not a Clanner and I am taking offense to the way Clan mechs are being nerfed into the ground.

[El Bandito]

Dakota1000, on 15 July 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

I don't actually mind quirks myself, I like them and find they add some flavor to the sides. IS gets mechs that are specialized for firepower, some for range, others for heavy defense. You just have to buy the mech for the job you want.

No thank you. I know enough about PGI to never rely on quirks. Instead of quirk-chasing and changing mechs that will become mediocre every few months like an idiot, I prefer to use Clan mechs with no need for quirks.

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

Your absolutely wrong and here is why it is so difficult for people to come together when there are two opposing sides.

I consider myself to be a complete neutral between Clan and IS balance. Right now I have roughly equal amounts of IS and Clan mechs in my mechbays with I think the edge going to IS mech currently. However I feel like the Clans have been nerfed into the ground and are slowly becoming irrelevant.

I have honestly felt that for the last 6 months at least that aside from a few standout mechs like the KDK-3, that IS and Clan balance felt pretty good. I could jump into either a Clan mech or an IS mech and feel relevant and competitive and my personal stats and performance be it me playing a Marauder IIC or me playing a Battlemaster were similar. Yet each and every major patch the Clans keep getting wacked. First it was the Skill Tree and Engine Desync which totally ruined all KDKs, not just the KDK-3. I own four of them and I don't have one single bit of desire to play them in the current state. Then came the energy re-balance and mobility nerfs which further wacked the clans hard. Now I don't want to play my Night Gyr and can barely bring myself to play one of the 7 Marauder IICs I own not to mention the huge effect losing damage on my LPLs, extended beam duration of my CER MLs and other changes had on ALL my Clan mechs even the underperformers I own. Now we are talking yet another nerf that is increase Heat, Cooldown, etc on CER SL and CER ML, weapons that virtually all my Clan mechs use to some extent and many actually rely on. The heat increase alone is going to break several of my builds on mechs including the Kitfox, Viper, Ice Ferret and Executioner I run.

Then there is the simple fact that come the same patch that is further nerfing the Clans, the IS is getting a huge buff and yes it is a huge buff because I spent 30+ hours on the PTS testing it is became pretty obvious, pretty quickly. Further most of the new IS tech actually got an even further buff between the last PTS and what the current patch notes indicated.

So I am honestly at the point where I am saying WTF, enough is enough. I am beginning to feel like PGI is not working toward balance anymore but rather is just catering to all the people who whine Clans are OP.

So on one hand I am ecstatic all all the goodies and buffage my IS mechs are going to be able to partake in but what about the other 60+ Clan mechs I own? I want to be able to enjoy these too and right now I am starting to not enjoy them at all. In fact I don't think I have dropped more than a dozen times in Clan mechs in the last 2 weeks of play.

So you say Clanners take offense, well I am not a Clanner and I am taking offense to the way Clan mechs are being nerfed into the ground.

Your entire argument relies on faulty ground.

1. PGI's blanket nerfing method, such as in the case of Kodiaks, has NOTHING TO DO with the base tech balance I am proposing. You can't argue against base tech balancing just because PGI is doing something wrong.

2. You mostly likely had easy time with those pre-nerfed KDK-3, Gyrs, and MAD-IICs, and now can't bear to drive nerfed version of them. Well, I am still driving them and I am still performing good in most of my Clan mechs. Virtually all the scores I have in my Season 13 were made through Clan mechs. Only Clan mech I stopped playing anymore is the Ice Ferret.

3. IS needs those tech buffs (many of those new tech are mediocre judging from the latest patchnote though) so they can begin to rely less on fickle quirks, and perform competitively without them. That's the whole point.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 July 2017 - 09:04 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Of course we should all just get along, especially on this forum.

...But first we all have to agree that clanners are wiener heads, especially Ced Riggs ; ).

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

No thank you. I know enough about PGI to never rely on quirks. Instead of quirk-chasing and changing mechs that will become mediocre every few months like an idiot, I prefer to use Clan mechs with no need for quirks.

At this point no mech is safe. Quirks aren't the only thing being changed. The engine desync, base mobility stat changes, and even ghost heat changes, have been what cut down recent Clan top contenders. Kodiak was hit hard by mobility nerfs that make it move like a Dire Wolf but with a higher speed when moving in a straight line, not to mention the ghost heat changes that cut up the 4 UAC10 build, and now the PPC+Gauss linking in the current upcoming patch to cut down what it had left and what most of the top tier Clan mechs were based around. Not to mention the whole weapon system changes that crushed CSPL builds and have reduced the total DPS on nearly every laser available to the Clans. Marauder IIC and Night Gyr were also hit hard by the mobility changes, Night Gyr suffering more so from the gauss+PPC linking.


Now lets not mention that not only did the Clan top performers take a hit, also the lowest of the low mechs that are barely clinging to life through some quirky build that manages to make it work decently also get destroyed in these massive blanket carpet bombing nerfs that happen. Just look at the poor Gargoyle 12 SPL build, not to mention the Executioner.


Yeah, I'll take quirks being adjusted on a couple optimal variants rather than the whole faction getting its spine snapped repeatedly. You earn the cbills in the few months time to buy many other variants anyway, though you can't escape the nerf when it hits all the mechs.

El Bandito, on 15 July 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

Your entire argument relies on faulty ground.

1. PGI's blanket nerfing method, such as in the case of Kodiaks, has NOTHING TO DO with the base tech balance I am proposing. You can't argue against base tech balancing just because PGI is doing something wrong.

2. You mostly likely had easy time with those pre-nerfed KDK-3, Gyrs, and MAD-IICs, and now can't bear to drive nerfed version of them. Well, I am still driving them and I am still performing good in most of my Clan mechs. Only Clan mech I stopped playing anymore is the Ice Ferret.

3. IS needs those tech buffs (many of those new tech are mediocre judging from the latest patchnote though) so they can begin to rely less on fickle quirks, and perform without them. That's the whole point.

1. "You can't argue against my opinion of how balance should be done based off how balance is actually being done ingame by the actual devs."

2. Which mechs can't you do good in in solo queue as a high level T1 player? I've seen the arguement many times saying that screenshots of high scores mean nothing due to all the factors present in game and all the luck involved in a match.

3. IS is getting a rather large faction wide blanket buff through the inclusion of new tech while Clan gets very little of substance and prior to this many blanket nerfs from grounds that many people considered to be balanced in the first place outside of occasional outliers that cause those blanket nerfs in the first place.

Edited by Dakota1000, 15 July 2017 - 08:57 AM.

[El Bandito]

Dakota1000, on 15 July 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

At this point no mech is safe. Quirks aren't the only thing being changed. The engine desync, base mobility stat changes, and even ghost heat changes, have been what cut down recent Clan top contenders. Kodiak was hit hard by mobility nerfs that make it move like a Dire Wolf but with a higher speed when moving in a straight line, not to mention the ghost heat changes that cut up the 4 UAC10 build, and now the PPC+Gauss linking in the current upcoming patch to cut down what it had left and what most of the top tier Clan mechs were based around. Not to mention the whole weapon system changes that crushed CSPL builds and have reduced the total DPS on nearly every laser available to the Clans. Marauder IIC and Night Gyr were also hit hard by the mobility changes, Night Gyr suffering more so from the gauss+PPC linking.

Judging by the fact that I still pull out top numbers with my Clan mechs in comparison to my IS mechs, even post mobility nerf, I am gonna say that currently Clans are more than fine. Don't quote me, just take a look at Tarogato's mech rating thread. https://mwomercs.com...ch-rating-2017/

PPFLD nerf do affect some Clan mechs but it is not as crushing as you think--mere 0.5 second difference. And according to Guzzler, top Clan mechs had stopped using PPFLD months ago.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 July 2017 - 08:59 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Abisha, on 15 July 2017 - 02:04 AM, said:

looks a lot like MWO playerbase

Haha. I remember that episode. I miss that show so much.

But that's fairly accurate. People like to make blanket statements and cite little more than they dislike something without further reasoning.

Not everyone. But if there's a nerf. People come out of the wood work to complain about it.

[LT. HARDCASE]

A lot of Clan enmity grew at the start of CW, seeded by the vocal minority who, at a time of Pre-Nerf Super Saiyian Clan OP bs, adamantly shouted down balance discussion with, "it's not the mechs, Clans just on average have better pilots."

As time went on, those same players posting things like, "the KDK-3 isn't OP, you just don't know how to fight it" certainly didn't help.

[El Bandito]

Dakota1000, on 15 July 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

1. "You can't argue against my opinion of how balance should be done based off how balance is actually being done ingame by the actual devs."

Of course I can. When I see foolishness and I point it out, regardless of who is making it.

Dakota1000, on 15 July 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

2. Which mechs can't you do good in in solo queue as a high level T1 player? I've seen the arguement many times saying that screenshots of high scores mean nothing due to all the factors present in game and all the luck involved in a match.

Who said anything about a single match? I am talking about my entire seasons' worth of matches post new ST. Clan mechs are still doing great.

Dakota1000, on 15 July 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

3. IS is getting a rather large faction wide blanket buff through the inclusion of new tech while Clan gets very little of substance and prior to this many blanket nerfs from grounds that many people considered to be balanced in the first place outside of occasional outliers that cause those blanket nerfs in the first place.

As I said before, PGI's stupidity does not detract from my proposal.

[Angel of Annihilation]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

No thank you. I know enough about PGI to never rely on quirks. Instead of quirk-chasing and changing mechs that will become mediocre every few months like an idiot, I prefer to use Clan mechs with no need for quirks.




Your entire argument relies on faulty ground.

1. PGI's blanket nerfing method, such as in the case of Kodiaks, has NOTHING TO DO with the base tech balance I am proposing. You can't argue against base tech balancing just because PGI is doing something wrong.

2. You mostly likely had easy time with those pre-nerfed KDK-3, Gyrs, and MAD-IICs, and now can't bear to drive nerfed version of them. Well, I am still driving them and I am still performing good in most of my Clan mechs. Only Clan mech I stopped playing anymore is the Ice Ferret.

3. IS needs those tech buffs (many of those new tech are mediocre judging from the latest patchnote though) so they can begin to rely less on fickle quirks, and perform competitively without them. That's the whole point.

1. My argument is that it is not just Clanners who feels there is an issue with the way PGI is being heavy handed with the Clan Nerfs.

2. It has nothing to do with an easy time, it has to do with an enjoyable time. I will be happy to admit that the KDK-3 was OP but the other variants not so much yet the nerf took all the variants down the toilet. Also my Bounty Hunter had similar to or better pre-nerf stats to many of my Marauders IICs yet I don't hear calls for nerfs to the Marauder. From my point of view a mech that was performing along the lines of the IS Marauder got hammered big time with nerfs and lost alot of what made it enjoyable to play, i.e. it mobility. I know that isn't the popular opinion but the only constant in my stats is me so if a mech is OP, that OP-ness should be reflected in my stats.

3. I am not complaining about the IS getting buffed, in fact I am happy for it. I am even ok with the IS retaining most of their quirks in alot of cases, hell I should be since half my mech stable is IS. However, I feel that the new tech in and of itself is more than enough to counter any lingering Clan dominance there might have been. The continued nerfing of the Clan over and over and over is just causing them to not be enjoyable to play any more. Also you claim the new IS tech is mediocre but what does medicore mean to you? Is adding 100m extra range to IS MLs mediocre? Is adding UAC/10s and 20s to the game and their added DPS mediocre? Is adding a PPC that can be mounted on mechs with extreme tonnage limitations mediocre? The thing is this "mediocre" tech is adding up to about a 10-20% performance upgrade on virtually all my IS mechs. That may be mediocre in comparison to a 50% or 100% upgrade but 10-20% is huge especially when the performance gap between Clan and IS wasn't that large to begin with.

[Ced Riggs]

As long as imbalances are met with nerfs to "fun", rather than making worse chassis also fun, we're going to have the circular discussion about balance that looks at performance metrics without taking enjoyment into account.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

Of course I can. When I see foolishness and I point it out, regardless of who is making it.

Who said anything about a single match? I am talking about my entire seasons' worth of matches post new ST. Clan mechs are still doing great.

As I said before, PGI's stupidity does not detract from my proposal.

On the first one I had quotes around it, showing that that is how your post read. You have your own idea of balance and state that people have no ability to argue against it if they are taking into account how the devs actually balance the game, thus the:

Dakota1000, on 15 July 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

1. "You can't argue against my opinion of how balance should be done based off how balance is actually being done ingame by the actual devs."

PGI doing balancing "wrong" is exactly what we should take into account when talking about balance, as we have to realize that we won't get what we ask for exactly.


As for number 2, I'm stating that many factors skew how well you do in matches, most notably your skill difference with the other players in the game which should allow you to pull out high numbers even in mechs that really aren't good. We all know the matchmaker is letting some pretty unbalanced games happen quite frequently. I feel we shouldn't base balance off of player's performance, rather the actual pros and cons and statistics of the mech itself, else we would have been buffing Kodiaks around the time of their release, I noticed very many would die to my own. Reasons such as players not being used to driving assault mechs or people flocking to a mech that is deemed OP rather than the mech itself being bad were really to blame.



Basically I'm saying that we both fundamentally disagree on many points up and down the line of balance from the end results down to the reasoning for changes and both of us cancel each other out in a way. We work together to show both sides of the balance so that people can decide for themselves on which opinion to take up. I don't really see either of us changing our opinions to fit the other, and I hold no ill will here, I do just love a good debate and you're always up for one on this subject.

I do see the pros of total balance in your proposal to normalize IS and Clan weaponry to basically be the same, but I find that the potential for totally stale gameplay outweighs the balance, and that a system that properly balances the quirks so that weaker mechs truly have quirks that bring them up to par would give a unique and fun experience to each mech while also bringing balance to the factions. Right now the quirks are all wrong, we have old mechs like the Stalker with pitiful quirks on it while new mechs like the Roughneck are fully decked out and ready for my idea. This is why I don't advocate for nerfs which just make players mad and cause them to get bored and leave, and rather I say that all mechs should be as fun to drive as one of those super quirked mechs. Have mechs that are great at tanking, others with great range, others with better than average speed, and some built for cooldown.

These pros that they have would have cons, such as taking a Mauler for example. You could get large cooldown bonuses on the mech to make it into a great gun platform, but it would have lower than average mobility and lack the armor and structure boosts that a tank role mech would have. Similar to what it already is, but taken to further lengths to keep it competitive and to keep its pros equal to the cons.

Rather than huge nerfs and buffs at a time that completely crush a mech or faction or playstyle all at once, mechs that are under or over performing would be taken down or brought up by a few percent here and there based off any balance findings throughout the season.

[Mcgral18]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 06:18 AM, said:

What clanners take offense to is when IS expects their @!#$ to be outright better

I mean, they'd be wrong

You expect a 15 ton Gauss Rifle to be the same as a 12 ton Gauss Rifle?
It SHOULD be outright better, not less explosive

[GrimRiver]

B-b-but clanner tech is small and light(among other things) and therefor they can fit more weapons on their mechs meaning they like to overkill and as a result IS had to get more armor and structure buffs to compensate.

Also they're tank bred, that just isn't natural and they suffer a superiority complex where they have to 1vs1 everybody to prove a point.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ced Riggs, on 15 July 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

As long as imbalances are met with nerfs to "fun", rather than making worse chassis also fun, we're going to have the circular discussion about balance that looks at performance metrics without taking enjoyment into account.

And this right here is exactly my point.

I play this game for enjoyment. I give PGI alot of my money for enjoyment but in pursuit of some impossible balance that can never be achieved, they keep nerfing that enjoyment out of the game. Just because IS players want to whine and complain about how unfair life is (when it really isn't) PGI keeps nerfing and nerfying the Clans until they have reached at least very near a point where the Clans aren't enjoyable to play.

This happened once before by the way, back before the IS had quriks and the Clans were blatantly OP. I stopped enjoying playing IS mechs, sold off about 75% of them to buy Clan mechs and then got bored and quit the game for about 9 months. That is about where I am at now. I have sold off like 5-6 of my Clan mechs already, bought a ton of IS mechs and near stopped playing Clans all together. I don't want this trend to continue and I am afraid the new round of nerfs are going to be the tipping point.

PGI just needs to stop nerfing the fun out of the game, simple as that.