67 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Chuck B, on 15 July 2017 - 03:11 AM, said:

I have to ask/wonder. Did PGI listen to anything we said on the PTS? Rac's are pretty much the same as they were at the end of the PTS. They got a very minor damage boost to .72 per round for the Rac2 and 1.365 for the Rac 5. They have the same heat and for everything I've seem will still build up heat and Jam during spin up. while I found them use-able, I found the UAC 10 better for over all DPS.</p>

A single RAC/5 deals more than 10 DPS for about 3-4 seconds. A Pair of RAC/5s deals about 60-80 damage before they can possibly jam if fired from fresh.

They cannot jam during spin-up; that was an incorrect statement.

RAC/5 already have a well-defined rile even if they haven't even dropped live yet. They exist for Burst-andScoot fire. You turn a corner, fire all your lasers and dual RAC/5s until they jam, and fire your lasers a second time during your fade. With twin RAC/5 and 6 ML, that's about 130 damage on single attack run lasting 4-5 seconds

Repeat.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 15 July 2017 - 10:05 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Prosperity Park, on 15 July 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

A single RAC/5 deals more than 10 DPS for about 3-4 seconds. A Pair of RAC/5s deals about 60-80 damage before they can possibly jam if fired from fresh.

They cannot jam during spin-up; that was an incorrect statement.

RAC/5 already have a well-defined rile even if they haven't even dropped live yet. They exist for Burst-andScoot fire. You turn a corner, fire all your lasers and dual RAC/5s until they jam, and fire your lasers a second time during your fade.

Repeat.

I found them great in a brawl or to set up a brawl. You see a target, you spin up the RAC or RACs and start pooring fire into that target. Target panics and is disorientated by constant rain of shells which produces constant cockpit shake, follow up with some SRMs or even medium lasers as he is disorientated and take him out.

Also a single RAC/5 doesn't produce much heat on most builds, like 1% heat every second or so, so I found I could fire a single RAC/5 at near max heat. This might not sound like a big deal but what it allowed me to do was keep constant fire on the enemy at least long enough to back him off or allow me to get into cover where firing any other type of weapon aside from a MG or Gauss would instantly shut me down and leave my vulnerable. RAC/2s seems nearly heat neutral on most my builds by the way.

I think what people need to realize about RAC's is they aren't what I term a "decisive" weapon, i.e. a weapon that has enough power to quickly finish off a wounded enemy in just a click of a button, like say a PPC. Instead it is a Damage Over Time and Suppression weapon, kind of like boating Quad AC/2 on a Mauler expect in this case it is wrapped up in a neat little 10 ton package. Basically it is going to require different tactics to use effectively.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 15 July 2017 - 10:18 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

MischiefSC, on 15 July 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

With ramp up and long cooldown you don't get that DPS out of them. UAC5s out perform them in every functional sense.

That's because their fundamental flaw is having the weapon system hinge on the prolonged fire when the jam bar has been filled. The least they could do is have the JamRampDownTime to 4s.

Look at this way, 1s spin up and spin down, 4s of shooting time, would do 43.24 damage, 2.7025 E-DPS right?

Why? because 43.24 damage is divided by the cumulative 10s of JamRampDownTime + 1s SpinUP + 1s SpinDown + 4s shooting time = 16.

Now reduce the JamRampDownTime to 4s, of a cumulative 10s. The end E-DPS now goes to 4.324.

Prosperity Park, on 15 July 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

Repeat.

4-5s of shooting is really so risky. Even C-ERLL when it had 1.5s of duration was considered pretty bad, now we're about to do +2.5x that, that's also not hitscan.

[Khobai]

I still think the best way to fix RACs is to increase the jam ramp up time from 5s to 10s and make it jam 100% of the time when the bar reaches the end.

Because that rewards you for NOT jamming the weapon. Which is how it should be. You should be rewarded for good jam bar management, not rewarded for running the RAC deep into the red and getting lucky.

That would put the RAC's sustained dps at 4.9 dps

Edited by Khobai, 15 July 2017 - 02:19 PM.

[davoodoo]

it should indeed jam at the end of bar if nothing else than to not encourage holding further.

but besides that unjam time should be same as filling the bar.

[MechaBattler]

I think this is just going to have to be one of those things they have to keep tweaking. Preferably with incremental changes.

[Chuck B]

I know this is more of a nit pick, but Im a former sound engineer, the sound of the RAC's has to change, who ever found the sound for the RAC's use the wrong type of gating gun. your not going to hear a CRANK in a modern gatling gun. Modern gatling guns are electro operated not hand cranked!!

[Khobai]

Quote

Modern gatling guns are electro operated not hand cranked!!

lostech

in the grim darkness of the far future you have to crank your guns

[Chuck B]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

lostech

in the grim darkness of the far future you have to crank your guns

ah , I though thats was what the hamster wheel was for. Guess I can fire the Hamster then. At least my cockpit will smell better now. Heat and Hamster poo make one hell of a smell.

[MischiefSC]

The6thMessenger, on 15 July 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

That's because their fundamental flaw is having the weapon system hinge on the prolonged fire when the jam bar has been filled. The least they could do is have the JamRampDownTime to 4s.

Look at this way, 1s spin up and spin down, 4s of shooting time, would do 43.24 damage, 2.7025 E-DPS right?

Why? because 43.24 damage is divided by the cumulative 10s of JamRampDownTime + 1s SpinUP + 1s SpinDown + 4s shooting time = 16.

Now reduce the JamRampDownTime to 4s, of a cumulative 10s. The end E-DPS now goes to 4.324.



4-5s of shooting is really so risky. Even C-ERLL when it had 1.5s of duration was considered pretty bad, now we're about to do +2.5x that, that's also not hitscan.

Which is the crux of it. The tradeoffs for rac5s are steep - 2xuac5s will fit in a ST with a LFE, 2xRAC5 won't. I can poke with UACs, I can stick and move, I can shoot and twist, I can snap off a double-tap of 2xuac5s for 20 damage in 0.5 second and fade. RAC can do none of that. You need me staring back at you for a good 4 seconds without moving to even have a *chance* of winning the trade - if my UACs jam in the first 3 shots, and I still just stand there anyway.

UACs are going to win in the great majority of gameplay situations.

[Tyroki]

It's stupid!

RACs shouldn't be balanced around DPS.
Why are RACs doing so little damage per shell compared to ACs?
They aren't called RAC2 and RAC5 because that's the name of the damn gun.
The 2 and 5 are the caliber of the ammo they fire!
They should be doing damage equal to, if not slightly less per shell than the regular AC of the same caliber, but pumping out the shells much, much faster.

Yes, it will eat mechs alive. It SHOULD eat mechs alive. If someone with RAC5's gets up close and personal, you're going to start losing armour.

As for Ghost Heat, I can understand RAC2's having ghost heat past 4. I could understand RAC5's having ghost heat past 2. They should NOT share ghost heat.

At this point there is no reason to take RACs over their UAC variants, which in tabletop they actually replace.

Edit: For IS. They replace for IS.

Edited by Tyroki, 15 July 2017 - 08:10 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Tyroki, on 15 July 2017 - 08:04 PM, said:

It's stupid!

RACs shouldn't be balanced around DPS.
Why are RACs doing so little damage per shell compared to ACs?
They aren't called RAC2 and RAC5 because that's the name of the damn gun.
The 2 and 5 are the caliber of the ammo they fire!
They should be doing damage equal to, if not slightly less per shell than the regular AC of the same caliber, but pumping out the shells much, much faster.

Yes, it will eat mechs alive. It SHOULD eat mechs alive. If someone with RAC5's gets up close and personal, you're going to start losing armour.

As for Ghost Heat, I can understand RAC2's having ghost heat past 4. I could understand RAC5's having ghost heat past 2. They should NOT share ghost heat.

At this point there is no reason to take RACs over their UAC variants, which in tabletop they actually replace.

Edit: For IS. They replace for IS.

No, they have game balance to worry about. RAC2 or RAC5 just says the caliber, not the damage. Caliber says how large a shell is, but it wasn't specified whether it was burst fire or single shot. You might be tempted to say that bigger shell = larger damage. No not necessarily, cause physics say a lighter projectile can do damage as much a heavier projectile as long as if it has enough speed to compensate.

Anyways, DPS is the name of the game because RACs are for sustained fire, pummeling after your enemies. Hell even normal ACs or other weapons have their own DPS. RACs and other face-time weapon requires lots of DPS, cause they sure don't make up on short bursts of immense damage.

With the RAC5's "responsible" DPS only at 2.70, versus 3.01 of the AC5, or the UAC5 not double shot, it's pretty messed up considering the stare-time, tonnage allotment and crit requirement. The RAC2 does even lesser Effective-DPS over the AC5, which is at the same weight.

The normal ACs have an edge on being on the side of the Meta, while UACs just flat out beats RAC on damage. The RACs sure needs buff if they would be relevant at all.

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

That would put the RAC's sustained dps at 4.9 dps

You know what's even funnier? I already had a winning configuration that gets a good target EDPS. And PGI just ignores it.

The6thMessenger, on 02 July 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

General Changes:

- RACs Jam 100% when Jam Meter is filled.
- RACs do not fill Jam Meter while spinning, only while shooting.
- RACs Jam Meter does not go down until Spin-Down is achieved.
- Always during operation, the weapon generates heat. Be it during spin-up, spin-down, or firing, it will generate heat. Like Stealth Armor.

The6thMessenger, on 02 July 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

RAC2:

Damage/shot: 0.80
Projectile Speed: 2000
Shots/Sec: 10.00
Burst DPS: 8.00
Total Damage/Burst: 40
Total Shots/Burst: 50
Spin-Up Time: 0.50s
Spin-Down Time: 0.50s
Burst Duration: 5.00s
Jam Dissipation: 4.00s
Jam Duration: 4.00s
EDPS: 4.00

The6thMessenger, on 02 July 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

RAC5:

Damage/shot: 1.25
Projectile Speed: 1650
Shots/Sec: 8.00
Burst DPS: 10.00
Total Damage/Burst: 50
Total Shots/burst: 40
Spin-Up Time: 0.50s
Spin-Down Time: 0.50s
Burst Duration: 5.00s
Jam Dissipation: 4.00s
Jam Duration: 4.00s
EDPS: 5.00

Hell, what's up with the projectile velocity even? Isn't it enough that the range is lower, we have to properly lead the stream the entire time we're staring to death?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 16 July 2017 - 01:12 AM.

[axe64]

i think they could get away with removing everything they did to try to balance it cuz thats how bad i think they are. remove jam remove ramp up time remove ramp down time remove ghost heat everything then go from there fresh. people might say they are so op then but im kinda thinking about dakka builds here they shoot fast but what balances them out and makes them not meta is that you just got to stare at enemy and while your shooting and hope no one shoots you in the ct which they will cuz everyone hates the thing streaming out bullets. once they do this then we can adjust heat and overall damage per shot and ghost heat to see what feels right. i would rather have them be just big machine guns.

[Reno Blade]

Using 2x RAC5 and just keeping firing both into the red zone until one jams:
Both are in the red zone
Both take the same 10 sec to cool down to 0

I would change the gauge to cool down in 5 sec if you didn't jam.
That way you could repeat bursts, but would still need to handle the spin up/down time.
But you would be able to have roughly the same uptime as downtime.

Edited by Reno Blade, 16 July 2017 - 02:51 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

4 RAC5s fired together, if there was no ghost heat, for their 5 second duration (inc spin up) does ~160 damage and then has a 10 second downtime. It has 450m range, inherent spread and requires constant staring.

6xAC5 (which is the same slots, although 8 tons heavier) with 12% CD does 30 at 0s, 60 at 1.5s, 90 at 3s, 120 at 4.5s.. and then keeps firing with no downtime. It has a 600m range, can be snapfired and is fully pinpoint.

That seems like it might be close to balanced, though with the ACs still slightly on top due to ease of use. Remind me again why the hell RAC5s have ghost heat? And given (assuming) that they do, tell me why i would ever use them on big mechs?

RAC2s are just terrible. Half the DPS of the 5 for 80% of the tonnage? Yeah.. no.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 16 July 2017 - 03:01 AM.

[davoodoo]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 July 2017 - 02:57 AM, said:

4 RAC5s fired together, if there was no ghost heat, for their 5 second duration (inc spin up) does ~160 damage and then has a 10 second downtime. It has 450m range, inherent spread and requires constant staring.

6xAC5 (which is the same slots, although 8 tons heavier) with 12% CD does 30 at 0s, 60 at 1.5s, 90 at 3s, 120 at 4.5s.. and then keeps firing with no downtime. It has a 600m range, can be snapfired and is fully pinpoint.

That seems like it might be close to balanced, though with the ACs still slightly on top due to ease of use. Remind me again why the hell RAC5s have ghost heat? And given (assuming) that they do, tell me why i would ever use them on big mechs?

RAC2s are just terrible. Half the DPS of the 5 for 80% of the tonnage? Yeah.. no.

I mean lets look at it that way.

racs will fire for 5 seconds, then jam, before they unjam it will be another 10 seconds.
so in 15s they did 160 dmg.
thats pretty laughable.

lets take 6 ac2
2.78dps.x 6 x 15=250dmg

these arent competition for ac2 in sustained and 5s burst, yeah no. Might aswell take ebj with 6 ermeds(x7=42) and 2 lpl(x12=24) for 66 dmg and fire them twice during 5 seconds for 132 dmg with option to twist in meanwhile.

drop unjam to 5s, at least then it will be just marginally worse than ac2 in sustained.

Edited by davoodoo, 16 July 2017 - 03:09 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

davoodoo, on 16 July 2017 - 03:04 AM, said:

I mean lets look at it that way.

racs will fire for 5 seconds, then jam, before they unjam it will be another 10 seconds.
so in 15s they did 160 dmg.
thats pretty laughable.

lets take 6 ac2
2.78dps.x 6 x 15=250dmg

these arent competition for ac2 in sustained and 5s burst, yeah no.

Thats not really fair, since the RAC mech could hide after 5s and not just stand there.. in 5s the AC2s would have done 83.4 dmg. But AC2s are terrible and not what we should be basing other weapons on anyway

[davoodoo]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 July 2017 - 03:08 AM, said:

Thats not really fair, since the RAC mech could hide after 5s and not just stand there.. in 5s the AC2s would have done 83.4 dmg. But AC2s are terrible and not what we should be basing other weapons on anyway

Yeah thats why i included ebj laservomit in edit.

and its not like ive put worst ballistic weapon we have...

Edited by davoodoo, 16 July 2017 - 03:11 AM.

[kapusta11]

Funzo, on 15 July 2017 - 03:41 AM, said:

10 Damage per second on the RAC5, so 2xRAC5 (looking at you ENF-5P) is a not too shabby 20 DPS. You definitely don't want to stare at a mech firing RACs at you for very long.

Fire 2 RAC5s for 2 seconds - paint your enemy with 40 damage. Fire 3 LPL + 2 ERML - deal 40 damage exactly where you want it. RACs are very bad.

[davoodoo]

kapusta11, on 16 July 2017 - 03:10 AM, said:

Fire 2 RAC5s for 2 seconds - paint your enemy with 40 damage. Fire 3 LPL + 2 ERML - deal 40 damage exactly where you want it. RACs are very bad.

i see bigger problem.

1 rac5=10 tons
so enforcer 5p is 50 tonner.

with maxed armor, endo steel and 255 xl it got merely 24.43tons left.
if we throw in ferro it will have 15 slots left
1rac5=6 slots
so not enough for ammo

so 5 tons of ammo at best with 10 dhs??
10 engine dhs will be 2 hps dissipation, while 1 rac5 produces 4 hps.

itll get very hot very fast and itll take forever to vent it and oh god stare time with xl on medium, pls be in red team...
just stick to uac5 on mediums and forget rac.

Edited by davoodoo, 16 July 2017 - 03:20 AM.