84 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

Sjorpha, on 15 July 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

There is no "if" here, the LFE is strictly worse than clan xl and there is no reason for that, nothing should be strictly worse than something else in a PvP game, it's bad design.

not necessarily, but that would require assymetrical balance.

<cough>2 stars<cough>

[Sjorpha]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

Don't forget the Shadowhawk-5M!

The 5M specifically? Most of them have the AC20 shoulder. I guess the 5M can do AC20+Snubnose with 5JJs which is unique, but I think the 2D will do it better with a full shield side, 3JJs is eanough on a medium.

[Andi Nagasia]

Sjorpha, on 15 July 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

There is no "if" here, the LFE is strictly worse than clan xl and there is no reason for that, nothing should be strictly worse than something else in a PvP game, it's bad design.

if your Comparing IS LFE to C-XL of course its worse, LFE isnt supposed to Compete with C-XL,
LFE is supposed to Compete with IS-XL Engines and STD engines, i said it before, and ill say it again,
if you are expecting LFE to be Equivalent to C-XL then you are going to be Disappointed with it,

if you are seeing LFE as a Bridge between the 2 IS Engine Types then you will be happy with it,
i was hoping that it wouldnt have a Penalty at all, but it does, so all i can do is test it out,
and if i find the Penalty is a Problem i will say so, but ill at least Try how it works first,

[Sjorpha]

davoodoo, on 15 July 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

not necessarily, but that would require assymetrical balance.

<cough>2 stars<cough>

Sure, but that's officially off the table since way back. Given the symmetrical teams being locked in it is bad design to make one thing strictly better than the other.

Andi Nagasia, on 15 July 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

if your Comparing IS LFE to C-XL of course its worse, LFE isnt supposed to Compete with C-XL,
LFE is supposed to Compete with IS-XL Engines and STD engines, i said it before, and ill say it again,
if you are expecting LFE to be Equivalent to C-XL then you are going to be Disappointed with it,

if you are seeing LFE as a Bridge between the 2 IS Engine Types then you will be happy with it,
i was hoping that it wouldnt have a Penalty at all, but it does, so all i can do is test it out,
and if i find the Penalty is a Problem i will say so, but ill at least Try how it works first,

Why should it not compete with clan XL?

IS mechs are competing with clan mechs on equal footing in this game, so there is no reason why they should have weaker equipment.

Am I dissapointed that PGI designs a PvP game with the ******** approach of making one faction strictly weaker than the other? Yes, I am indeed.

[Andi Nagasia]

Sjorpha, on 15 July 2017 - 05:44 PM, said:

Why should it not compete with clan XL?

IS mechs are competing with clan mechs on equal footing in this game, so there is no reason why they should have weaker equipment.

Am I dissapointed that PGI designs a PvP game with the ******** approach of making one faction strictly weaker than the other? Yes, I am indeed.

IS have Advantages and Clan has Advantages,
its not so one sided when it comes to Faction Balance,

what this new Tech will do is give IS Mechs more options to better Fight Clan Mechs,
these Options arnt useless to balance, nor are they all imcombising in Pushing Clan Mechs Back,
but they will tilt balance alittle tward IS, which can very well be enough to give us a more Balanced Game,

just think IS mechs have XL-DeathTrap, 14Crit Endo & Ferro, and 3Crit DHS,
but they are still a match for Clan because of Armor & Structure & some Weapon Quirks,
balance has been getting closer this last year, and now its really close,

im just saying everything isnt so one sided,

[El Bandito]

Sjorpha, on 15 July 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

The 5M specifically? Most of them have the AC20 shoulder. I guess the 5M can do AC20+Snubnose with 5JJs which is unique, but I think the 2D will do it better with a full shield side, 3JJs is eanough on a medium.

Check Smurfy. SHD-5M gets 20% UAC5 cooldown and 20% UAC jam reduction. It is gonna be great with 2xUAC5s+LFE.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 July 2017 - 05:52 PM.

[Sjorpha]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Check Smurfy. SHD-5M gets 20% UAC5 cooldown and 20% UAC jam reduction. It is gonna be great with 2xUAC5s+LFE.

Dang, missed that. That's awesome. UAC20 might be good on it too then.

[Sjorpha]

Andi Nagasia, on 15 July 2017 - 05:49 PM, said:

IS have Advantages and Clan has Advantages,
its not so one sided when it comes to Faction Balance,

what this new Tech will do is give IS Mechs more options to better Fight Clan Mechs,
these Options arnt useless to balance, nor are they all imcombising in Pushing Clan Mechs Back,
but they will tilt balance alittle tward IS, which can very well be enough to give us a more Balanced Game,

just think IS mechs have XL-DeathTrap, 14Crit Endo & Ferro, and 3Crit DHS,
but they are still a match for Clan because of Armor & Structure & some Weapon Quirks,
balance has been getting closer this last year, and now its really close,

im just saying everything isnt so one sided,

Quirks do work, I don't like them very much but the do work when they are strong enough.

IS mechs need to consistently have pretty strong quirks in that case though, and most of them don't.

Balanced tech and no quirks, or rather minor quirks to badly designed mechs on both sides, would be a much better design philosophy IMO. Now we are stuck with a general need for strong quirks even on the most optimal of IS mechs, and when they don't have that they aren't competitive.

LFE was an opportunity to move towards a healthier kind of balance with less need for quirks, and it was not taken.

Civil war tech will be a buff to IS, but not a big one since most of the stuff isn't very good.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Mcgral18, on 15 July 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:

That's because, as a Clam Apologist, you like stretching the truth


If a Spheroid mech wants competitive speed AND firepower compared to a Clam mech, it needs an XL. It might not even reach parity, because weapons are also heavier/larger, as well as less/no FF savings


LFE, combined with quirks, will help
If quirks get removed because of the LFE, suddenly the Sphere is gimped again

Hmm....my 68 IS mechs would like to argue with that claim just a bit. You seem to be under the misconception that I want Clan mechs to out perform IS mechs, that I want the hundreds of dollars I have invested in to IS mech packs and IS heroes to be totally worthless all so my lovely Clan mechs can be OP and dominate the game. Are you really serious?

There is no stretching the truth going on, all there is, is a fair comparison of IS vs Clan because I play both equally. It does me absolutely no good to side with either the Clans or the IS because either way I would be screwing myself over. If the IS becomes OP, my Clan mechs become crap. If the Clans become OP, my IS mechs become crap. Who the hell wants half the mechs they own to become crap?

What does frustrate me though is people who stubbornly cling to falsehoods either out of ignorance or a desire to improve their favorite mechs at the expense of everything else and do so by picking and choosing their facts rather than look at the whole picture. There seems to be a whole hell of alot of that going on, here on these forums.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 15 July 2017 - 06:03 PM.

[Fleeb the Mad]

There ultimately had to be a reason for every IS mech running a standard not to immediately switch to a LFE. That reason is going to be the side torso penalty, though it's not going to stop many people.

Don't fall into the trap of comparing it to cXL If that were the objective PGI simply would have improved the IS XL ages ago. Instead they've taken on an approach of trying to balance Clan and IS tech within themselves first, and then trying to balance them relative to each other. The LFE is about right as a middle option between STD and XL engines.

I'd imagine virtually every mech that has a STD engine will convert to an LFE. As with the cXL, there's simply not enough to lose for the tonnage gain, particularly for mechs with >300 engines that are high on the tonnage inefficiency curve.

[Mcgral18]

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

Hmm....my 68 IS mechs would like to argue with that claim just a bit. You seem to be under the misconception that I want Clan mechs to out perform IS mechs, that I want the hundreds of dollars I have invested in to IS mech packs and IS heroes to be totally worthless all so my lovely Clan mechs can be OP and dominate the game. Are you really serious?

There is no stretching the truth going on, all there is, is a fair comparison of IS vs Clan because I play both equally. It does me absolutely no good to side with either the Clans or the IS because either way I would be screwing myself over. If the IS becomes OP, my Clan mechs become crap. If the Clans become OP, my IS mechs become crap. Who the hell wants half the mechs they own to become crap?

What does frustrate me though is people who stubbornly cling to falsehoods either out of ignorance or a desire to improve their favorite mechs at the expense of everything else and do so by picking and choosing their facts rather than look at the whole picture. There seems to be a whole hell of alot of that going on, here on these forums.

If you facts are always swaying into one direction, you MAY be slightly bias


Slightly Apologetic to one side, more than the other


A Clammy side

[Deathlike]

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

Hmm....my 68 IS mechs would like to argue with that claim just a bit. You seem to be under the misconception that I want Clan mechs to out perform IS mechs, that I want the hundreds of dollars I have invested in to IS mech packs and IS heroes to be totally worthless all so my lovely Clan mechs can be OP and dominate the game. Are you really serious?

There is no stretching the truth going on, all there is, is a fair comparison of IS vs Clan because I play both equally. It does me absolutely no good to side with either the Clans or the IS because either way I would be screwing myself over. If the IS becomes OP, my Clan mechs become crap. If the Clans become OP, my IS mechs become crap. Who the hell wants half the mechs they own to become crap?

What does frustrate me though is people who stubbornly cling to falsehoods either out of ignorance or a desire to improve their favorite mechs at the expense of everything else and do so by picking and choosing their facts rather than look at the whole picture. There seems to be a whole hell of alot of that going on, here on these forums.

You're not playing at a high enough level to understand how comp level (or just advanced understanding) sees the value of Clans and Clan XL compared to IS tech in general. IS tech has some niches that it excels at, but overwhelmingly Clan dominance is mostly tied to Clan XL benefits (the penalties that losing a side torso does not outweigh the benefits of Clan XL, particularly when LFE inherits literally the same penalties WHILE providing less tonnage on the whole compared to Clan XL).

It's mostly a you thing.

[Khobai]

Quote

Why should it not compete with clan XL?

LFE should not compete with CXL because ISXL should compete with CXL. ISXL should be able to survive side torso destruction. To this day that remains one of the biggest and most unnecessary disparities between IS and Clan tech.

The purpose of LFE is to provide an in between engine for ISXL and STD. LFE should not only be more durable than ISXL but also more durable than CXL. Yet less durable than STD.

And where IS get LFE which is effectively a more durable version of ISXL, clantech goes the opposite direction and clans should eventually get CXXL as their third engine type.. CXXL being a lighter yet massively more fragile version of CXL.

This is of course why we need a proper engine critical hit system. So all these engines can be properly balanced.

Edited by Khobai, 15 July 2017 - 06:18 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

What does frustrate me though is people who stubbornly cling to falsehoods either out of ignorance or a desire to improve their favorite mechs at the expense of everything else and do so by picking and choosing their facts rather than look at the whole picture. There seems to be a whole hell of alot of that going on, here on these forums.

Well, I hate to break the news...but this is exactly what you are being charged of. And you are quite guilty. Even when the math gets broken down for you step-by-step and the concepts that they operate under clearly delineated, nope, obviously there is just hate for Clan 'Mechs.

While the nerfs often do make Clan 'Mechs feel unpleasant to pilot, it's just that: a feeling. It's superficial. They still outperform their IS counterparts and that's why they get chosen when winning is the bottom line.

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

LFE should not compete with CXL because ISXL should compete with CXL. ISXL should be able to survive side torso destruction. To this day that remains one of the biggest and most unnecessary disparities between IS and Clan tech.

The purpose of LFE isnt to compete with CXL. its to provide an in between engine for ISXL and STD.

And where IS get LFE, clans should eventually get CXXL as their third engine type.. CXXL being a lighter yet massively more fragile version of CXL.

ISXL does not compete with Clan XL at all. It's die by 1 side torso vs die by 2 side torsos. Until PGI decides to change that, it's a problem.

LFE (and Clan XL) literally obsoletes STD engines by virtual of its benefits.

I don't even know what the rules are for CXXL, but I don't think you need to do any better than pure Clan XL.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 15 July 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:

I don't even know what the rules are for CXXL, but I don't think you need to do any better than pure Clan XL.

Unless all 'Mechs get access to the entire suite of engine sizes available, there is zero use for any form of XXL, especially not with the heat penalties.

[Khobai]

Quote

ISXL does not compete with Clan XL at all. It's die by 1 side torso vs die by 2 side torsos. Until PGI decides to change that, it's a problem.

hence the word "should"

ISXL should compete with CXL and should survive side torso destruction.

Quote

I don't even know what the rules are for CXXL, but I don't think you need to do any better than pure Clan XL.

With CXXL the mech gets destroyed when you lose a side torso. So its like the clan version of the current ISXL.

So no its definitely not better than CXL except maybe on light mechs. It weighs less than CXL but comes with the downside of dying when you lose a side torso. With that downside, CXXL is fairly balanced as far as engines go.

And yes if IS get 3 engine choices than clans should get their 3 engine choices too.

Because lets be honest, having less options is a form of imbalance. Like IS having 5 types of ppcs and clans only having 1 type of ppc is imbalance. So for both techbases to be equal they should have roughly the same number of options at their disposal.

Quote

Unless all 'Mechs get access to the entire suite of engine sizes available, there is zero use for any form of XXL, especially not with the heat penalties.

I disagree. I can think of several uses for CXXL. My kitfox would love it for example.

And who says the heat penalties have to be the same as tabletop or even exist for that matter?

PGI has changed things like that before. Which is why its so odd that they wont make ISXL survive side torso destruction and fix literally half the balance disparity between the techbases with just that one change.

Edited by Khobai, 15 July 2017 - 06:33 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

I disagree. I can think of several uses for CXXL.

And who says the heat penalties have to be the same as tabletop or even exist for that matter?

PGI has changed things like that before. Which is why its so odd that they wont make ISXL survive side torso destruction and fix literally half the balance disparity between the techbases with just that one change.

The penalties don't have to stay, but even without them I'm not seeing anything where I would recommend trading the ability to survive a side torso destruction to run a little bit faster without there being higher engine caps. There isn't even a need for greater firepower anywhere.

[Khobai]

Quote

The penalties don't have to stay, but even without them I'm not seeing anything where I would recommend trading the ability to survive a side torso destruction to run a little bit faster without there being higher engine caps. There isn't even a need for greater firepower anywhere.

my kitfox is pretty strapped on tonnage I could use the extra tonnage of a CXXL. and if the kitfox loses a side torso its useless anyway so it might as well just die.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

my kitfox is pretty strapped on tonnage I could use the extra tonnage of a CXXL. and if the kitfox loses a side torso its useless anyway so it might as well just die.

See, this is what I was talking about several threads ago. You can't just keep all your proposed changes in your head and only talk about this one aspect. We can't read your mind. If you are proposing that Omnis gain the ability to swap engine types, that is something else entirely.