83 replies to this topic

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 18 July 2017 - 10:08 PM, said:

Even that comparison favors IS.

ERPPC -> has absurdly faster velocity, shorter cooldown, lower heat, IS mechs have ridiculous PPC quirks (like +30% velocity)

CERPPC -> damn useless splash damage. and 1 ton and 1 crit less.

Except Clan ER PPC builds end up cooler than IS ER PPC builds despite the higher base heat of Clan ER PPC, with substantially higher sustained DPS as a result.

And that is without even considering the Clan ER PPC splash damage, which is not 'damn near useless'.

Edited by Zergling, 18 July 2017 - 11:08 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Khobai, on 18 July 2017 - 10:51 PM, said:

Weapon quirks that buff weapons absolutely has to do with weapon balance.

And clan mechs dont get weapon quirks on their good mechs. While IS do get weapon quirks on good mechs.



its not 280m/s faster speed

its 400m/s faster speed plus another 30% from quirks

so its like 800m/s-1000m/s faster speed

it is not some paltry amount. it is a tremendous difference. it makes ERPPCs almost instantaneous hit weapons.

The game is not balance around quirked mechs. If you dont think the 4 mechs with 30% ppc quirk shouldn't have it than post about these mechs.

[Dr Hobo]

Lily from animove, on 18 July 2017 - 10:56 PM, said:

such nonsense, you compare whatever is available, not just what is namely similar. You take whats efficient and works, not whats just there for the sake of beeing there.




because fixing a happening problem sounds so much cooler than trying to fix a not so obvious problem.

But you're comparing two different classes of PPCs.

The Clans don't have light,heavy and snub yet,or even normal PPCs. It's just ER. So ergo,you would compare the same family,the ER to the ER.

So when the clans get the other types of PPCs then you can compare them all as a family,but until then,all you can do is look at the two ERs because those two are the most similar

The Clan one is better. The tonnage and lower ROF both make it better than the IS one.

[visionGT4]

Its pretty laughable that the biggest issue on the apologist agenda post CW Tech launch is a single stat on a single barely viable weapon.

I don't want to get ahead of myself here... but credit where credits due, ChrisL and his overseer may actually have achieved a respectable result for this game (and battletech IP as a whole)

[Khobai]

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Except Clan ER PPC builds end up cooler than IS ER PPC builds despite the higher base heat of Clan ER PPC, with substantially higher sustained DPS as a result.

yeah and i already said the heat difference was a moot point because of the CDHS being better.

but that doesnt make up for the velocity difference. not even close. more CDHS doesnt make CERPPCs go faster. only a targeting computer does that and that means less CDHS.

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And that is without even considering the Clan ER PPC splash damage, which is not 'damn near useless'.

it is actually damn near useless. especially when you hit an arm or leg and half the splash damage just vanishes. Vanishing damage is the definition of useless. Optimistically splash damage is worth maybe 1/3rd of what PPFLD is. When splash damage no longer vanishes into thin air then maybe you can convince me its not damn near useless.

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But you're comparing two different classes of PPCs.

The Clans don't have light,heavy and snub yet,or even normal PPCs. It's just ER. So ergo,you would compare the same family,the ER to the ER.

So when the clans get the other types of PPCs then you can compare them all as a family,but until then,all you can do is look at the two ERs because those two are the most similar

I would actually argue that because clans only have one type of PPC, and are unlikely to ever have more than one type of PPC, that their one and only type of PPC needs to broadly compete with all the types of PPCs IS gets.

CERPPC needs to be able to compete against all three: ISERPPC, ISHPPC, and ISPPC/SNPPC. Because its the only type of PPC clans will ever have. Youre talking like clans will eventually get more types of PPCs but its simply not in the cards for them.

In this case having less PPC options is an imbalance in itself.

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The Clan one is better. The tonnage and lower ROF both make it better than the IS one.

since when is a lower rate of fire an advantage? that makes no sense. the CERPPC (4.5s) fires slower than the ERPPC (4.0s) thats only ever a disadvantage. Although its barely worth mentioning as a disadvantage im only mentioning it because you brought it up.

and why do you keep ignoring the biggest advantage of the ISERPPC, its velocity? the enormous velocity difference between the ISERPPC and CERPPC is crux of the whole issue.

Edited by Khobai, 19 July 2017 - 12:03 AM.

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 18 July 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

yeah and i already said the heat difference was a moot point because of the CDHS being better.

but that doesnt make up for the velocity difference. not even close. more CDHS doesnt make CERPPCs go faster. only a targeting computer does that and that means less CDHS.

We're talking about a 25-30% advantage in sustained DPS, how that 'not even close' to 26.67% advantage in velocity?

Sure the IS ER PPC will be more accurate at long range, but the Clan ER PPC will be able to make up for that with volume of fire.
And at close range, the IS ER PPC's velocity advantage is irrelevant, while the Clan ER PPC's sustained DPS is still useful.

Not only that, Clan ER PPC builds can drop 5 DHS for a TarComp V, and get practically the same velocity as IS ER PPCs, while still being cooler and having splash damage!

Khobai, on 18 July 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

it is actually damn near useless. especially when you hit an arm or leg and half the splash damage just vanishes. optimistically splash damage is worth maybe 1/3rd of what PPFLD is.

No, it's not 'damn near useless'. The damage it causes adds up, and I've blown the ST of mechs with hits to their arms or legs, along with coring out mechs that were shielding their CT by hitting their ST.

[Khobai]

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Not only that, Clan ER PPC builds can drop 5 DHS for a TarComp V, and get practically the same velocity as IS ER PPCs, while still being cooler and having splash damage!

Still not even close to the same velocity lmao

with quirks ISERPPCs are getting upto like 2500m/s velocity

[Thaidron]

other weapon that i think must be revised is the rotatory ac, is too op,i had be killed too easy with this rotatory auto cannon,in few seconds

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 19 July 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

Still not even close to the same velocity lmao

with quirks ISERPPCs are getting upto like 2500m/s velocity

Guess what? Clans have velocity quirks too!

Just look at the +20% velocity the Warhawk Prime gets ffs.

Edited by Zergling, 19 July 2017 - 12:12 AM.

[Znail]

This thread kind of proves that there is no valid problems with the new tech as this rather absurd complaint is all there is. Clan ER PPC is one of the more popular and good weapons in the game while IS ER PPC is bad and not used. The main problem with IS ER PPC is for the one that makes the mistake in using it.

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 18 July 2017 - 10:08 PM, said:

CERPPC -> damn useless splash damage. and 1 ton and 1 crit less.

I can't tell you how many times I've lost a torso to splash damage when I was carefully guarding it. Or just died, period. It's not to be underestimated. It's one of the chief reasons the cERPPC has always been superior to the ERPPC.

[JadePanther]

Zergling, on 18 July 2017 - 11:56 PM, said:

Not only that, Clan ER PPC builds can drop 5 DHS for a TarComp V, and get practically the same velocity as IS ER PPCs, while still being cooler and having splash damage!

try a TCompII +10% velocity brings it up to 1650.. TCompIII +15% would push it to 1725... TCompV would bring it all the way up to 1875.. this is all sans quirks..

[Sjorpha]

This discussion is so ridiculous.

The new PPCs are being tested and we don't really know how good they are, they seem decent. So far nothing indicating a balance problem with them.

The cERPPC has been great and heavily used for a long time, it's one of the competitive loadouts on clan mediums. There is nothing so far indicating that it needs a buff. The lower weight, crit slot and splash damage seems more than enough to balance it against the IS PPCs.

If you want to buff or nerf things you look at how widely and competitively those things are used and buff underperformers and nerf overperformers in that metagame context, you don't throw out cherry picked weapon stats like only velocity like it means something. Come back in a couple months if cERPPC turns out to be underperforming and never used competitively and you might have a case, though I really doubt that will happen. My prediction is that the cERPPC still is and will remain the most competitive PPC in the game.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 18 July 2017 - 10:08 PM, said:

Even that comparison favors IS.

ERPPC -> has absurdly faster velocity, shorter cooldown, lower heat, IS mechs have ridiculous PPC quirks (like +30% velocity)

CERPPC -> damn useless splash damage. and 1 ton and 1 crit less.

Good, perhaps now IS doesnt have to depend on PPC quirks, and PGI can start removing/reducing such quirks. Win win.

[Zergling]

JadePanther, on 19 July 2017 - 01:14 AM, said:

try a TCompII +10% velocity brings it up to 1650.. TCompIII +15% would push it to 1725... TCompV would bring it all the way up to 1875.. this is all sans quirks..

Yup, and quirks aren't exactly something Clans go without either; the Adder Prime gets +30%, Night Gyr Jade Kit gets +25%, Warhawk Prime gets +20%, Timber Wolf D gets +20%, Nova A gets +15%, Linebacker Prime gets +10% and Summoner (with high nipple mounts) can get 5%.

The Night Gyr doesn't make for a good ER PPC boat due to excessive tonnage and inadequete slots for heaps of DHS, but the Warhawk is a great quad ER PPC boat, while all the others are either decent or great with twin ER PPCs.

[Khobai]

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Yup, and quirks aren't exactly something Clans go without either

only the bad clan mechs get quirks they took the quirks away from the good ones.

whereas tier1 IS mechs usually have some of the best quirks and often thats what makes them tier1.

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try a TCompII +10% velocity brings it up to 1650.. TCompIII +15% would push it to 1725... TCompV would bring it all the way up to 1875.. this is all sans quirks..

and still vastly underperforming.

IS ERPPC with 30% velocity quirks and without TC = 2500m/s

no matter how you try to manipulate the facts or sugar coat it the velocity is inferior by a huge margin

the CERPPC still crawls across the map while the ISERPPC hits almost instantaneously. and having to take a high level targeting computer is no real solution. there is a reason people dont use targeting computers and why PGI is looking at completely redoing them in the future.

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Good, perhaps now IS doesnt have to depend on PPC quirks, and PGI can start removing/reducing such quirks. Win win.

If the quirks were removed/significantly reduced id be fine with that. The quirks are really what pushes it over the top.

base level balance without relying on quirks should really be the ultimate goal anyway. quirks at most should be adding like 10% bonuses maybe. not absurd amounts like 30%.

Edited by Khobai, 19 July 2017 - 05:46 AM.

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 19 July 2017 - 05:36 AM, said:

only the bad clan mechs get quirks they took the quirks away from the good ones

whereas tier1 IS mechs often have some of the best quirks

Yeah, except the Warhawk Prime is probably the best quad ER PPC boat, and the Summoner is still one of the best twin ER PPC boats.

Edited by Zergling, 19 July 2017 - 07:10 AM.

[Khobai]

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Yeah, except the Warhawk Prime is probably the best quad ER PPC boat, and the Summoner is still one of the best twin ER PPC boats

except neither of those were ever really a thing. they were fun mechs. not seriously competitive builds.

like I said, only the bad clan mechs have quirks. and those were both bad ones.

and the only reason the summoner is getting a second glance more recently is because every other clan mech was nerfed into the dirt for agility for no good reason. because PGI refuses to just let ISXL survive a side torso blowout, theyd rather have all clan mechs perform like garbage trucks.

right now quirks are swinging balance too far in the direction of IS. PGI has gotten the tech bases fairly even but IS still getting absurd 30% quirks is throwing off balance.

I mean even the warhawk, which isnt even a great mech, doesnt get anywhere near 30% velocity for its quirks. it gets what like 12.5% velocity? The warhawk's quirks are actually pretty balanced. But 30% quirks on IS mechs, not so much. Slash those quirks down to like 10%-15% or in some cases remove them entirely, and it might be closer to balanced.

Edited by Khobai, 19 July 2017 - 06:03 AM.

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 19 July 2017 - 05:36 AM, said:

the CERPPC still crawls across the map while the ISERPPC hits almost instantaneously

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.

The IS ER PPC velocity is only 26.67% higher, not 100-200% or something like you are making it out to be here.

Khobai, on 19 July 2017 - 05:48 AM, said:

I mean even the warhawk, which isnt even a great mech, doesnt get anywhere near 30% velocity for its quirks. it gets what like 12.5% velocity? The warhawk's quirks are actually pretty balanced.

Warhawk C has +12.5% velocity with -13% heat gen, and Warhawk Prime has +20% velocity with -4% heat gen.

Edited by Zergling, 19 July 2017 - 07:28 AM.

[Dr Hobo]

Thaidron, on 19 July 2017 - 12:08 AM, said:

other weapon that i think must be revised is the rotatory ac, is too op,i had be killed too easy with this rotatory auto cannon,in few seconds

Wat

It's a rotary cannon,with a high rate of fire,that just dumps heat and ammo,then jams FOREVER. The RAC2 is worthless,and the Rac5 is the only decent one if you have at least 2 to use.