325 replies to this topic

[vandalhooch]

Suko, on 19 July 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

Yes, most salutations have completely lost all their original context and empathy in modern society. It's a phrase/greeting said out of rote societal norms and not out of true care or concern for how someone's life is going.

Upholding societal norms is showing concern for people. It shows concern for the community as a whole.

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And by association, I would say calling out "GG" in a match is the same disassociation. It has no earnest meaning anymore. It's just something people type without any true context or empathy. I respect you Bishop, but I think you kind of stepped in it with the above post. You acknowledge greetings as having lost all context, then you go and defend using "GG" as a caring gesture. But it also has lost all meaning in today's gaming environment.

Clearly it hasn't lost all meaning in today's gaming environment. As proof, see this thread. What you meant to say is that you wish it would lose all meaning and then you wouldn't have to be bothered with upholding a societal norm. Says more about you than it does the society.

[Ganatar]

Mister Blastman, on 19 July 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

So you won't be upset when I say, "Hahaha good game, losers," or, "So pathetic. Keep the change after you wax my mech," or "So bad, so sad," after a game, right?

Because I'll gladly do so, especially if it doesn't earn me reports.

I think this kind of proves Steiner's point though, right? You know that you would display that kind of negative behavior after a match if you could so you assume everyone else would, too? A lot of people just aren't like that, and I wouldn't want to live in a world where I just assumed everybody was.

[vandalhooch]

davoodoo, on 19 July 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

No, he should quietly wait for the end of this shitshow.

But im not interested in tennis and assume this match was onesided...

Also handshake is part of tradition in sports leagues and as that it really expresses nothing since everybody does it regardless of circumstances...

It means nothing? Really? Care to predict what would happen if an NFL team refused to shake hands with an opponent after a game? If it means nothing, then there should be absolutely no reaction by other teams, fans, or announcers, right? Care to wager on if that would actually happen?

Following social norms is more than just personally respecting an individual, it is showing respect for the community at large.

Edited by vandalhooch, 19 July 2017 - 06:55 PM.

[vandalhooch]

davoodoo, on 19 July 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:

Because theres no such tradition outside of official leagues and no one to enforce it...
Theres no coach to say "ok kids now shake hands"

Ever seen a pickup game of basketball at a local gym? Do those unofficial players shake hands after the game or not?

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

vandalhooch, on 19 July 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

It means nothing? Really? Care to predict what would happen if an NFL team refused to shake hands with an opponent after a game? If it means nothing, then there should be absolutely no reaction by other teams, fans, or announcers, right? Care to wager on if that would actually happen?

Following social norms is more than just personally respecting an individual, it is showing respect for the community at large.

Yeah because a dad playing MWO on his toaster is basically the same thing as a professional athlete competing in an organized league with sponsorships at stake. Lmao

Go do a nationwide survey of how many parents get kicked out of kids sports matches for fighting with refs. What a pillar of civilization.

If you want to claim "GG" is about sportsmanship and respect then you're just hiding behind a veneer of naivety.

[McGoat]

Good grief..
I normally type out "Thanks for dying".
*Shrug*

[vandalhooch]

qS Sachiel, on 19 July 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

if you've ever played an IRL team sport, you don't hang around and chat with the winner / loser after the game. you line up shake hands and gtfo.

Ahem, rugby.

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hell, even judo the bow is cursory to both the dojo/opp/ref.

also irony bolded.

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 19 July 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

Yeah because a dad playing MWO on his toaster is basically the same thing as a professional athlete competing in an organized league with sponsorships at stake. Lmao

I wasn't the one who brought up professional sports. I was responding to others who had.

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Go do a nationwide survey of how many parents get kicked out of kids sports matches for fighting with refs. What a pillar of civilization.

If you want to claim "GG" is about sportsmanship and respect then you're just hiding behind a veneer of naivety.

Says everything about you.

[InspectorG]

QuantumButler, on 19 July 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

GG stands for "git gud"

That. THAT! is the proper salt needed to hide the odor of poop that permeates Puglandia.

I, personally only say 'Good Game' if in fact, it was. Good Games in Puglandia are few and far between.

I do tell my team GJ when we win. Even if its a roll, because that is likely the only meaningful way to support teamwork in Puglandia.

[Mystere]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 19 July 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

Go do a nationwide survey of how many parents get kicked out of kids sports matches for fighting with refs. What a pillar of civilization.

Let me turn this around for a different perspective: How many parents are not kicked out of kids sports matches?

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

vandalhooch, on 19 July 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:

I wasn't the one who brought up professional sports. I was responding to others who had.

Says everything about you.

Then why keep using an obviously stupid analogy?

What does it say about me? That I can empathize with others and don't think TV=REALITY?

I'll GG if the loser does first, but the way I see it the entire purpose of congratulating an opponent on a well fought match is to equalize the playing field between winner and loser. Many people don't like losing, even more dislike feeling that the match might have been unfair, and if they don't want to enter into that discussion then I don't see any sportsmanship in rubbing it in.

I kart raced when I was younger and if an opponent spun out or got damage from contact, I'm not going to go up after the race and say "good race" like a ******* moron.. I'm going to ask what happened and see if they need help.. empathize with their position.

Suggesting that people getting mad at GG need to grow thicker skin or whatever doesn't mean you have a better sense of sportsmanship, it just means you're an ******* that's forgotten what the gesture is supposed to mean in the first place...

[SPencil]

Arnold The Governator, on 19 July 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

Just making sure this shows up in every page

McGoat, on 19 July 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

Good grief..
I normally type out "Thanks for dying".
*Shrug*

Excellent work bud, I'll thank you for dying too

Edited by SPencil, 19 July 2017 - 07:33 PM.

[Soapy Squirrel]

ohh i forgot
im offended by everyone thats offended by gg

and GG

Edited by Soapy Squirrel, 19 July 2017 - 07:58 PM.

[vandalhooch]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 19 July 2017 - 07:33 PM, said:

Then why keep using an obviously stupid analogy?

It's not a stupid analogy. It's not an analogy at all. Humans competing against other humans in a game environment. Does having good sportsmanship matter whether or not it's being viewed by millions of other people? Why?

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What does it say about me? That I can empathize with others and don't think TV=REALITY?

I'll GG if the loser does first, but the way I see it the entire purpose of congratulating an opponent on a well fought match is to equalize the playing field between winner and loser.

And who are you to declare what is and is not a "well fought" match from your opponents? This is especially arrogant considering you spend most of your time viewing the match from your own isolated point of view.

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Many people don't like losing, even more dislike feeling that the match might have been unfair, and if they don't want to enter into that discussion then I don't see any sportsmanship in rubbing it in.

Observing the societal norms of human/human competition is not "rubbing it in." Anyone who says it is doesn't actually understand what sportsmanship really is.

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I kart raced when I was younger and if an opponent spun out or got damage from contact, I'm not going to go up after the race and say "good race" like a ******* moron.. I'm going to ask what happened and see if they need help.. empathize with their position.

Sounds great. What happened when they didn't spin out and you just beat them? Did you just walk off the track without any acknowledgment of their contribution to the event?

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Suggesting that people getting mad at GG need to grow thicker skin

So, creating strawmen is considered good forum form in your book?

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or whatever doesn't mean you have a better sense of sportsmanship, it just means you're an ******* that's forgotten what the gesture is supposed to mean in the first place...

Acknowledging your opponent's contribution to a competition, regardless of their actual skill, is the social norm for human/human competition. It is a much bigger thing than how any one specific person feels about the competition at one moment of time. That's something you should have learned from any decent coach or mentor.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

vandalhooch, on 19 July 2017 - 08:00 PM, said:

It's not a stupid analogy. It's not an analogy at all. Humans competing against other humans in a game environment. Does having good sportsmanship matter whether or not it's being viewed by millions of other people? Why?

If you can't see the difference between professional play in front of an audience for money, and play for pleasure at home, then you really have no place to talk about "societal norms of human competition". It suffices to say that human relations are significantly more nuanced than just shaking hands.

And who are you to declare what is and is not a "well fought" match from your opponents? This is especially arrogant considering you spend most of your time viewing the match from your own isolated point of view.

It's a turn of phrase. Like I said I'd defer to the loser. Maybe direct this comment to someone that just GGs habitually?

Observing the societal norms of human/human competition is not "rubbing it in." Anyone who says it is doesn't actually understand what sportsmanship really is.

See above. Comments like this suggest you watch more sports than you play. Ask me whether the GG from someone that cheated at beer league dodgeball felt like "real sportsmanship".

Sounds great. What happened when they didn't spin out and you just beat them? Did you just walk off the track without any acknowledgment of their contribution to the event?

We were all friends and didn't really GG one another unless you had a close race. Reality is that it was a money-driven sport and GGing the kid in last that couldn't run on new tires all the time would have been pretty poor form. Just like MWO some things were out of the control of the participant, and camaraderie to keep the competition friendly was more important than dogmatically following rules of sportsmanship because "THOSE ARE THE NORMS!!!" The point is that you're all equal when you walk off the field and if someone is feeling salty, you do what you can to rectify that.

So, creating strawmen is considered good forum form in your book?

How is it a straw man? There are plenty of posts in this thread ridiculing people that don't like GG.

Acknowledging your opponent's contribution to a competition, regardless of their actual skill, is the social norm for human/human competition. It is a much bigger thing than how any one specific person feels about the competition at one moment of time. That's something you should have learned from any decent coach or mentor.

See above. MWO is a lot closer to driving through rush hour traffic than it is to a national sports league. Saying GG is at best an empty gesture and at worst just rubbing salt in a wound.

[kesmai]

Really doodes?
13 pages in 2 days?
About this?
...

Edited by kesmai, 19 July 2017 - 11:30 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

If it's a hard fought match, whether it's 12-0 or 12-11, I'll say "GG" if I feel like it because I find it sporting to do so more often than not.

If someone chooses to get upset about that, that's their right to do so, but I don't need to empathize with them at all. They clearly didn't "empathize" with my POV either. The expression GG, WP etc is only rubbing it in if someone chooses to twist the very clear meaning, to feel damaged.

That's akin to passing someone in the hallway and giving a "good morning" only to get a mad retort about it's not. It's a common turn of phrase for a post-game parting and there's zero wrong with it.

Rubbing in it, being a ******-winner is not something I endorse in the slightest. But being a sore loser when someone says GG, WP or the like is on the LOSER's end of the equation, and it's their issue to deal with. Simple as that.

You don't have to shake my hand after the match, you can vent about it turned bad at the end etc...but that's on you, not the person offering their hand or saying "good game."

[vandalhooch]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 19 July 2017 - 08:38 PM, said:

If you can't see the difference between professional play in front of an audience for money, and play for pleasure at home, then you really have no place to talk about "societal norms of human competition". It suffices to say that human relations are significantly more nuanced than just shaking hands.

The fact that you think good sportsmanship is different if you are getting paid versus when you are not says all we need to know about you.

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It's a turn of phrase. Like I said I'd defer to the loser. Maybe direct this comment to someone that just GGs habitually?

No, you claimed that you congratulate players on "well fought" matches. How exactly do you determine what is and is not a "well fought" match between complete strangers? Who are you to decide what is "well fought" versus "poorly fought" for someone else? This is especially arrogant considering you can't actually sit back and watch the entire match unfold. All you see is what's outside your cockpit and the final score.

A habitual "gg" is not an attempt to claim that the opponents fought well. That's the whole point of the this thread!

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We were all friends and didn't really GG one another unless you had a close race. Reality is that it was a money-driven sport and GGing the kid in last that couldn't run on new tires all the time would have been pretty poor form. Just like MWO some things were out of the control of the participant, and camaraderie to keep the competition friendly was more important than dogmatically following rules of sportsmanship because "THOSE ARE THE NORMS!!!" The point is that you're all equal when you walk off the field and if someone is feeling salty, you do what you can to rectify that.

So, what you are saying is that there were social rules and customs that you engaged in to build camaraderie between drivers. You may not have said "good race" every time but you did engage in social norms appropriate to the context. Sounds good. Care to explain how that is at all relevant to a video game where every player has access to the same digital "tires" and "equipment?"

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How is it a straw man? There are plenty of posts in this thread ridiculing people that don't like GG.

Did I say "people who hate getting a 'gg" after a match need to get thicker skins?" If I didn't say anything at all like that, why are you attributing it to me? Making stuff up about what other's say in order to knock it down rhetorically is the very definition of a strawman.

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See above. MWO is a lot closer to driving through rush hour traffic than it is to a national sports league. Saying GG is at best an empty gesture and at worst just rubbing salt in a wound.

You want to equate people downloading a PvP game and spending their free time in organized matches with declared winners and losers with "driving through rush hour traffic?" Weren't you trying to claim that I was using a crap analogy?

Saying GG is a simple good sportsman behavior. Whether you think it is an "empty gesture" or "rubbing salt in" says more about your attitude towards recreational competition than it does the person using the term.

[Leone]

ShoX, on 19 July 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

When someone says "GG" after a match, their motives might not be the same as yours.

@ JadePanther, Mister Blastman, AssualtPig and anyone else who who takes umbrage with my congratulations or salutation of those brave souls I fight, I do not necessarily mean you. My apologies if I find it too long to single out those who have earned my respect upon the field of battle, but feel free to consider yourselves never the intended target of anything else I say.

But yea, even on a 12-0 stomp, there are those who'll stand stalwart and hold the line, and just because their team abandons them or my own team follows my lead, it does not make their actions any less honourable or worthy of my respect.

@ Everyone else who does their utmost to take me out, who defies their opposition at all cost an by any means, who strives towards victory, even if they fail. To those willing to drop time and again against me and mine, alone or alongside companions. You know who you are. This one goes out to you.

<o.

~Leone, of Kell's Commandos.

Edited by Leone, 19 July 2017 - 10:43 PM.

[Vellron2005]

Personally, I use "gg" when I want to congratulate anyone on a good match, even when I get stomped "0:12", or when my team stomps "12:0". It's a congratulations to good play.

I also use "ggclose" in the same context, but only when the game was truly "close".

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

vandalhooch, on 19 July 2017 - 09:12 PM, said:

The fact that you think good sportsmanship is different if you are getting paid versus when you are not says all we need to know about you.

And the fact that you can't see a difference indicates you probably never played sports anyways, so what do you know? Am I supposed to be shaking my friends hand and thanking my sponsors after a casual game of squash? Should i be bowing before playing catch? Lmao.

Nevermind that you're comparing sports to games- where "normal social rules" can be ignored as a process of playing. Suggesting rules of sportsmanship even apply is intrinsically suspect since there isnt really a single codified "right" way to play. The framework of MWO suggests competition, but at the same time you'll have people that defy this by bringing troll builds or that play hide and seek- valid forms of play unless they actually get banned for it. You ultimately cannot make a direct comparison to sport because so many elements are left ambiguous to give room for play.

In any case, if you assume we're all in competition, then it's more like traffic because you're not even interacting long enough for any show of respect to be meaningful. Most people are ultimately just grinding cbills or xp, and many don't care whether they win or lose. GGing some noob in a stock unskilled Centurion from the cockpit of your optimized MAD-IIC is like GGing the guy in the slow lane that's just trying to get home.

Sportsmanship is about respect, and respect is more than a series of empty gestures (they are empty). Deferring to the loser on how to proceed is respecting their right to feel differently about the outcome- if they don't care, that's fine! If they're upset, I dont think shaming them into "good sportsmanship" solves anything. If they want to congratulate us on a win, then I'd thank them for the good match. I don't really know what you're trying to imply this says about me, because I think It's pretty reasonable.