23 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

The point is pretty simple, ATMs are guided and can do 3 damage at short range while SRMs are not guided and only do 2 damage--2.15 damage for IS SRMs but that means basically nothing--even though SRMs are supposed to either have some guidance or they're supposed to do 3 damage per missile without guidance.

Either give SRMs 3 damage per missile or give them basic guidance; I don't expect the latter to happen and the former works fine so just do that.

This would also be an opportunity to actually address Clan vs IS balance because Clan SRMs could deal only 2.5 damage per missile, meaning that it would still be really easy for Clan mechs to bring more SRM tubes (or, with the same amount of tubes, improve their equipment elsewhere) and still have a major advantage in that regard, but IS SRM damage would be a bit more frontloaded.

If it's fine for ATMs to have 3 damage per missile with guidance then it's fine for SRMs without guidance to also do 3 damage as they're supposed to.

[Scratx]

*facepalm* SRMs also have a lot more ammo per ton and have lighter and smaller launchers. And they don't get shut down hard by Stealth Armor and/or ECM.

[El Bandito]

SRMs do have much faster speed and can be manually aimed at a single section, such as legs or a ST. Not to mention they are far lighter and less bulkier. Those must be factored in.

[Pariah Devalis]

lol, no. As it is, ATM are damage inefficient in regards to damage per crit and damage per ton. In nearly the same tonnage and crit space as an ATM12 (7 tons and 5 crits), you can fit 3 A-SRM6 (7.5 tons and 6 crits) or 4 SRM6 without artemis (6 tons and 4 crits). The ASRM6 has the same damage, similar clustering, and higher projectile speed at a higher rate of fire and the 4 SRM6 have higher damage, higher projectile speed, and higher rate of fire at the cost of clustering.

SRM also have almost twice the effective close range engagement zone of an ATM. The zone where an ATM can come close to SRM efficiency is only slightly more than half that of an SRM.


ATM are ungodly hot when taken en mass, and take up stupid numbers of internal crit slots. They work best on mechs with limited slots but plenty of crits, like the Shadow Cat and Summoner. They are not as good as dedicated options for brawling on mechs with 4-8 missile hard points - with the exception of the SNV-B, which even so does better with ATM9 instead of 12.

They are, however, extremely nice to have for mechs like the Summoner or Shadow Cat. It is a huge quality of life enhancement weapon for these chassis.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 July 2017 - 06:45 PM.

[Pjwned]

Scratx, on 19 July 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:

*facepalm* SRMs also have a lot more ammo per ton and have lighter and smaller launchers.

1) ATMs get 90 ammo per ton so I wouldn't say that's "a lot more" ammo per ton at all, and on top of that they can do just as much or more damage with 1 ton of ammo than SRMs can without too much trouble.

2) I would sure hope that SRMs have some sort of advantage in their much smaller range bracket, but that's still not an excuse for ATMs getting what they have while SRMs get neither guidance nor increased damage without guidance.

Quote

And they don't get shut down hard by Stealth Armor and/or ECM.

Being shut down by ECM is a consequence of ECM being incredibly unbalanced, but being shut down by stealth armor is a consequence of stealth armor doing something like what it's supposed to do, although neither of them should shut down missile locks completely since that's not what they're supposed to do, and especially not in the case of ECM.

El Bandito, on 19 July 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

SRMs do have much faster speed and can be manually aimed at a single section, such as legs or a ST. Not to mention they are far lighter and less bulkier. Those must be factored in.

The problem is that you're saying "here's what makes this weapon system worth even remotely considering" and saying it has to be factored in against a weapon system that (putting aside minimum range shenanigans) gets everything it's supposed to while SRMs get the shaft.

Edited by Pjwned, 19 July 2017 - 06:47 PM.

[Pjwned]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 July 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

lol, no. As it is, ATM are damage inefficient in regards to damage per crit and damage per ton. In nearly the same tonnage and crit space as an ATM12 (7 tons and 5 crits), you can fit 3 A-SRM6 (7.5 tons and 6 crits) or 4 SRM6 without artemis (6 tons and 4 crits). The ASRM6 has the same damage, similar clustering, and higher projectile speed at a higher rate of fire and the 4 SRM6 have higher damage, higher projectile speed, and higher rate of fire at the cost of clustering.

ATM are ungodly hot when taken en mass, and take up stupid numbers of internal crit slots. They work best on mechs with limited slots but plenty of crits, like the Shadow Cat and Summoner. They are not as good as dedicated options for brawling on mechs with 4-8 missile hard points - with the exception of the SNV-B, which even so does better with ATM9 instead of 12.

They are, however, extremely nice to have for mechs like the Summoner or Shadow Cat. It is a huge quality of life enhancement weapon for these chassis.

That's just a consequence of ATMs being somewhat balanced, since having the range profile that they do is a pretty major advantage.

The only real problem with ATMs is that minimum range is handled piss poorly, and is only an issue because PGI can't handle putting in ammo switching, but it's still workable even without ammo switching if the minimum range is just removed (preferable) or changed to scaling damage (better but not ideal); doing that and also buffing SRM damage at the same time would fix multiple problems at once.

[Pariah Devalis]

Pjwned, on 19 July 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

That's just a consequence of ATMs being somewhat balanced, since having the range profile that they do is a pretty major advantage.

The only real problem with ATMs is that minimum range is handled piss poorly, and is only an issue because PGI can't handle putting in ammo switching, but it's still workable even without ammo switching if the minimum range is just removed (preferable) or changed to scaling damage (better but not ideal); doing that and also buffing SRM damage at the same time would fix multiple problems at once.

Why do SRM need their damage buffed? You have yet to establish a solid argument for it beyond "ATM do 3 per missile." This is despite ATM being extremely weak to AMS, more difficult to dumbfire than SRM, having only half the range in which they actually compete with SRM for damage potential, being individually far heavier and bulkier, and have much lower damage per second than SRM.

In short, you have yet to establish SRM's inferiority relative to ATM. You have also failed to consider a secondary direction of argument: lowering the damage of ATM. I don't think either is necessary, personally. I am not taking SRM off my brawlers for ATM any time soon, that's for sure.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 July 2017 - 06:53 PM.

[Tarogato]

lol no.

Maybe try playing the game before making suggestions? SRMs are already strong enough. In fact, they're about "just right" as is.

[Andi Nagasia]

actually i would agree that as dumb-fire SRMs are supposed to have 3 Damage in TT,
personally i can see SRMs getting a Buff to 3 Damage for IS and 2.5 for Clan,

However, be ready to have their GH limit to be decreased as well(maybe to 3 instead of 4,)
also assume that your Velocity would then be reduced probably 300m/s,
(with this i would increase all Missile speeds to 300m/s)

also ATMs do 3 damage only between 120-270, and they can be countered by ECM,
and are also extremely weak to AMS(3AMS will nullify ATM24)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 19 July 2017 - 07:10 PM.

[Lux Monolithic]

I am entirely too drunk to even marginally comprehend what the dang biscuit you are referring to.

[Khobai]

neither should be 3 damage lol

making srms 3 damage is like saying atms at 3 damage is okay

supernovas with x4 ATM12s doing multiple 144 damage volleys and not overheating is not okay

makes more sense to say atms should be 2 damage if srms are 2 damage and atms should have no min range.

because then the game still maintains some semblance of balance

Quote

also ATMs do 3 damage only between 120-270, and they can be countered by ECM,
and are also extremely weak to AMS(3AMS will nullify ATM24)

yeah but just because a weapon is bad doesnt mean a weapon isnt doing too much damage.

they arnt mutually exclusive.

for example longtom in CW. it was bad. but it did so much damage that it wasnt fun getting hit with it on the rare occasions it actually hit you.

ATMs do way too much damage at 3 damage per missile.

Edited by Khobai, 19 July 2017 - 07:24 PM.

[Steel Claws]

I don't see many ATM boats - because they suck. AMS rips right through them and the trajectory is so flat the target has to be in the open. However I do see lots of SRM boats. SRMs DO NOT need a buff.

Edited by Steel Claws, 19 July 2017 - 07:19 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Scratx, on 19 July 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:

*facepalm* SRMs also have a lot more ammo per ton and have lighter and smaller launchers. And they don't get shut down hard by Stealth Armor and/or ECM.

Don't forget getting shut down by the slightest amount of AMS. I watched a Centurion with a Single AMS shot down 10 out of 12 ATMs I was launching at him so instead of doing the expected 36 damage, I was doing 6.

The only thing that makes them worth taking at all right now is when you have those times that the enemy doesn't have AMS mounted or mounted by a mech near him and you can smack him around for the full 3 damage per shot.

[Pariah Devalis]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 July 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

actually i would agree that as dumb-fire SRMs are supposed to have 3 Damage in TT,
personally i can see SRMs getting a Buff to 3 Damage for IS and 2.5 for Clan,

However, be ready to have their GH limit to be decreased as well(maybe to 3 instead of 4,)
also assume that your Velocity would then be reduced probably 300m/s,
(with this i would increase all Missile speeds to 300m/s)

also ATMs do 3 damage only between 120-270, and they can be countered by ECM,
and are also extremely weak to AMS(3AMS will nullify ATM24)

2.15 damage per missile strong, for the IS. 2.0 damage per missile for the Clans. Fair, given the tonnage and crit size differences. Still think it's overkill they get that AND superior missile clustering, however. Once you slap Artemis on a Clan launcher, you are not saving much in the way of crits or tons, but you are still loosing out on the extra damage. Something seems off here, but not enough I am going to get my panties in a twist about it.

Edit: accidentally skipped a digit.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 July 2017 - 07:23 PM.

[Pjwned]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 July 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

Why do SRM need their damage buffed? You have yet to establish a solid argument for it beyond "ATM do 3 per missile." This is despite ATM being extremely weak to AMS, more difficult to dumbfire than SRM, having only half the range in which they actually compete with SRM for damage potential, being individually far heavier and bulkier, and have much lower damage per second than SRM.

In short, you have yet to establish SRM's inferiority relative to ATM. You have also failed to consider a secondary direction of argument: lowering the damage of ATM. I don't think either is necessary, personally. I am not taking SRM off my brawlers for ATM any time soon, that's for sure.

My bigger point is that both weapons should be better than they are now at short range. Don't screw ATMs over by giving them minimum range when their short range capability is not supposed to have a minimum range, and don't screw SRMs over by glossing over their guidance without increasing their damage.

Tarogato, on 19 July 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

lol no.

Maybe try playing the game before making suggestions? SRMs are already strong enough. In fact, they're about "just right" as is.

They're not though. They spread damage a lot, they have a hard range cap, they only barely have more damage per heat than medium lasers and damage per ton is significantly less, they require ammo, they get shot down by AMS...

They do have advantages obviously, but not enough, and if they just did more damage they would be in better shape.

Edited by Pjwned, 19 July 2017 - 07:57 PM.

[Lux Monolithic]

Steel Claws, on 19 July 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

I don't see many ATM boats - because they suck. AMS rips right through them and the trajectory is so flat the target has to be in the open. However I do see lots of SRM boats. SRMs DO NOT need a buff.

Sorry dude but you are completely and entirely wrong. My 4x ATM12 Supernova will F*ck your world up. As will my 3 ATM6 2 ATM3 Stormcrow. Feel free to invite me to the Steiner Colosseum

[Pariah Devalis]

Illuminous Owl, on 19 July 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

Sorry dude but you are completely and entirely wrong. My 4x ATM12 Supernova will F*ck your world up. As will my 3 ATM6 2 ATM3 Stormcrow. Feel free to invite me to the Steiner Colosseum

Suggest Quad ATM9 Quad MPLas SNV instead of the quad ATM12. Heat sustainability goes way up, rate of fire goes up, and you have functional backup weapons if someone does get too close. Also not scavenging for enough tonnage for ammunition to feed those ATM12 monsters.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 July 2017 - 07:27 PM.

[Prototelis]

ATMs kind of suck. If anything I'd be happy if they did a little less damage and didn't have the minimum range.

If you're boating them you're going to get screwed over the same way IS lrm boats get screwed over; as soon as someone realizes what you're doing you get swarmed or rushed. Only without the benefit of being able to use them from behind cover.

[Lux Monolithic]

Prototelis, on 19 July 2017 - 07:29 PM, said:

ATMs kind of suck. If anything I'd be happy if they did a little less damage and didn't have the minimum range.

If you're boating them you're going to get screwed over the same way IS lrm boats get screwed over; as soon as someone realizes what you're doing you get swarmed or rushed. Only without the benefit of being able to use them from behind cover.

In pugs you don't really encounter that. Most teams don't even know what AMS is.. so you're pretty much good. The ones that do, you've got one or two AMS Mechs, with one or two AMS per mech max. The occasional Kit Fox with 3... but other than that... you've pretty much got a golden ticket to wreck face.

You identify which one or two mechs have AMS and adjust fire... reposition and engage mechs that don't have AMS. Easy Peasy. Until that is... people and chillins wise up and start equipping AMS.... MUHAHAHAHA... the spoiler is here... but will the chillins utilize the power of the forum!? Only one more bottle of wine will tell. <pass out>

Edited by Illuminous Owl, 19 July 2017 - 07:38 PM.

[Steel Claws]

Illuminous Owl, on 19 July 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

Sorry dude but you are completely and entirely wrong. My 4x ATM12 Supernova will F*ck your world up. As will my 3 ATM6 2 ATM3 Stormcrow. Feel free to invite me to the Steiner Colosseum

All I got to do is get in under 270 meters....