72 replies to this topic

[Wildstreak]

Have not built a Clan Mech besides a Cheetah but seen a few running 2 Hvy Laser on Shadow Cats.

[Battlemaster56]

Just tried 2x HML and 3x Art+SRM6 with ECM, still run hot and don't see much difference from other test firing them leave me open to get alpha'd in the face atleast twice...

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 July 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

You can do 5 and 1 HLL though cant you?

2HLL and 3ErML wasnt too bad, just focus on heat in the skill tree.

I tried a whole ton of things trying to get a Heavy Laser option (small, medium or large) that actually performed better than ERs. For actual in game performance the ERs just worked better. Got more shots in more consistently with better heat management overall. The long beam and long cooldown just gimp their performance so bad.

Same problem I had with RACs. I wanted to love them - just nothing I couldn't do better with UAC5s or 10s - and due to the tonnage and size, RAC5s are competing as much with UAC10s as UAC5s. You can fit 2x UAC5s in a ST with an LFE, for example. The RAC5 isn't 10.91 DPS. Not sure where that dream is coming from. Not functionally.

Much like the Heavy Lasers, sure I can make a build with them - just that I can make a comparable build with oldtech that's better.

[White Heat]

The problem is many people who don't like the new heavy lasers are building their weapons array with the heavy laser as the primary consideration.

The heavys have the best DPS per ton of any laser. Therefore they are ideal as a secondary weapon for missile boats and some ballistic builds. They are also great on lighter or medium mechs where tonnage is scarce.

People whacking 4 heavys or a large swathe of heavy meds on a mech and thinking this is good, are going to have a bad time.

Edited by Robot Pecker, 21 July 2017 - 10:59 PM.

[Battlemaster56]

Robot ******, on 21 July 2017 - 10:58 PM, said:

The problem is many people who don't like the new heavy lasers are building their weapons array with the heavy laser as the primary consideration.

The heavys have the best DPS per ton of any laser. Therefore they are ideal as a secondary weapon for missile boats and some ballistic builds. They are also great on lighter or medium mechs where tonnage is scarce.

People whacking 4 heavys or a large swathe of heavy meds on a mech and thinking this is good, are going to have a bad time.

There way better secondary weapons than heavy lasers seeing that yor hurting yourself more than you hurting the enemy. ATM all they do it make you look scary til someone start ripping your armor with 2 alpha worths of firepower while you deciding weather to take it or twist and waste damage.

Edited by Battlemaster56, 21 July 2017 - 11:23 PM.

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 21 July 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

huh? its not perma tied. its just an initial point of reference.

if they later changed something on the ISML it doesnt mean the HML would also have to change.

Ah, fair enough. I misunderstood.

Khobai, on 21 July 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

it only favors those kinds of weapons at long range.

heavy lasers arnt long range. and at the range where heavy lasers operate is dominated by low cooldown dps weapons like large pulses. theyre just not bringing a whole lot to the table that pulses cant do better.

I dunno about that; I was using a pair of Heavy Large with a pair of Gauss on my Mad Cat II to decent effect.
The better DPS of Large Pulses was kinda wasted with slow firing Gauss, so Heavy Large actually worked better.

Khobai, on 21 July 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

except they dont need shorter beam duration. their damage per tick is already the highest in the game. higher than large pulse lasers even. their beam durations are pretty awesome right now.

the issue isnt beam duration. its the longass cooldowns and the high heat for such short range weapons

Damage per 0.1 seconds:
Heavy Small = 0.54
ER Small = 0.45
Micro Pulse = 0.54

Heavy Medium = 0.69
ER Medium = 0.56
Small Pulse = 0.67
Medium Pulse = 0.78

Heavy Large = 1.16
ER Large = 0.81
Large Pulse = 1.10

Heavy Small = equal to Micro Pulse in damage/tick
Heavy Medium = 3% advantage in damage/tick over Small Pulse (and 11% inferior to Medium Pulse)
Heavy Large = 5% advantage in damage/tick over Large Pulse

So while their damage/tick is better than comparable ER Lasers, they aren't much better than comparable Pulse Lasers.
As such, I don't believe that a buff to beam duration will make them OP. In fact, I'd be willing to take an equal duration nerf to cooldown to receive such a buff.

Khobai, on 21 July 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

theyre not competing with pulse lasers in the same range band as pulse lasers. pulse lasers completely outdps them and for less heat.

Heavy Small = 1.25 DPS, 2.50 DPS/ton, 1.53 damage/heat, 0.82 HPS
Micro Pulse = 1.29 DPS, 2.57 DPS/ton, 1.59 damage/heat, 0.81 HPS

The Micro Pulse only has a tiny advantage in DPS and heat efficiency.


Heavy Medium = 1.55 DPS, 1.55 DPS/ton, 1.25 damage/heat, 1.24 HPS
Small Pulse = 1.60 DPS, 1.60 DPS/ton, 1.67 damage/heat, 0.94 HPS
Medium Pulse = 1.79 DPS, 0.90 DPS/ton, 1.47 damage/heat, 1.22 HPS

Again only a minor advantage in DPS for the Small Pulse, but this time a much larger advantage in heat efficiency.
Medium Pulse isn't as directly comparable as the Small Pulse, but it only has 16% advantage in DPS for 100% more weight, less damage/heat advantage than the Small Pulse, and a very minor HPS advantage over the Heavy Medium.


Heavy Large = 2.47 DPS, 0.62 DPS/ton, 1.13 damage/heat, 2.19 HPS
Large Pulse = 2.80 DPS, 0.47 DPS/ton, 1.20 damage/heat, 2.33 HPS

The Large Pulse has more DPS, but significantly worse DPS/ton. It has a slightly better damage/heat efficiency, but generates more heat over time.


In all, DPS isn't the problem with the Heavy Lasers; they compete fine in that area despite their long cooldowns.
The Heavy Small doesn't have problems with heat either; having used the weapon recently, I'd say its biggest issue it has is short range, which should probably be buffed from 115/230 to 150/300.

Heavy Medium and Heavy Large certainly are hot weapons for their range, so I'm not opposed to a heat buff to those weapons, provided they don't end up being equal or better than pulse lasers in that regard.

Edited by Zergling, 21 July 2017 - 11:58 PM.

[Xetelian]

Took the 4 MPL off my IFR Prime and put 4 HML and hated it. The cycle time on a heavy medium lasers is excruciatingly long. I haven't tried other heavy lasers but I imagine they are all packing long durations with huge cool downs that don't start till the end of the long duration.


Swapped back to MPL and doing more damage with that 28 alpha over the 40 damage alpha.

[White Heat]

Have you tried 2 heavy large?

[Battlemaster56]

Robot ******, on 22 July 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

Have you tried 2 heavy large?

My HGN-IIC A have 2 HLL and 3 ATM 9 it only good after I soften the targets up with the ATM's, but I can only fire the HLL's atleast twice before starting burn up.

[Shifty McSwift]

Heavy smalls are nice, let me pack in an extra 5 heatsinks at a loss of about 3 damage to my staggered alpha (and about 250 range to that HSL volley), while making my staggered volley about 10 heat less before the heat sync bonus. Though I knew they were going to be nice like that after SPL took their hit.

The others just don't seem to match up vs pulse to me, I would always pick MPL or LPL over MHL or LHL, unless I needed the weight desperately.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 22 July 2017 - 03:27 AM.

[VonBruinwald]

MDD-HD

Fire the mediums at will, use the heavies for range and deadly deadly alphas.

[Antares102]

Found my own use at least for HLL for now:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...20c8a5b788c61d2
78 laser alpha and actually quite playable at least in SoloQ.

This build moved my MAD-IIC K/D up from 5.53 to 5.71 over about 20 games.
See my sig for details.

Edited by Antares102, 22 July 2017 - 01:17 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Don't use Hvy Smalls on a Cheetah (probably other Lights), the extra heat is not worth it.