158 replies to this topic

[LordBraxton]

+1 for 8v8 and old cbill rate

[Wildstreak]

Nah.
8v8 can still be deadly. Even though you have less people shooting, once a single Mech goes down on one side, it has more of an impact on the survivors that now.
Also 8v8 was better off then due to several maps being smaller.
People can start a club using Private Matches (now free) for 8v8. Record matches and display results for discussion.
Finally it is more important to me to have PSR/Tier replaced with something else, either something new with less Tiers or go back to 3 Tier ELO.

AND NO RESPAWNS.

Edited by Wildstreak, 04 August 2017 - 08:50 PM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Don't see how this aids TTK. Once you lose a player, is it a big difference if its now 8 vs 7 compared to 12 vs 11? Things like nascar and deathballs will still occur, and people will still congregate at the same points on maps (just like all the fights happening around the caldera on the original caustic back when it was 8v8). It only really takes 2 or 3 mechs to quickly focus down and destroy any mech on the roster, so if anything it will simply increase the speed of matches as your starting with 2/3 of the players you currently do. I really don't see this being the fix people imagine it would be, each player is going to play the game their way and build mechs how they want just like now, reducing total number of players can't affect that. Canyon seems to play the same to me now with 12v12 as it ever did 8v8, you simply have more people to shoot at.

[poltergoost]

What I'd like to see is more randomness in other areas too, mix up the starts, heck even some randomness to the terrain would be great

Problem is, the best players also know every detail of the current maps, best firing lines, best ambush positions based on the same starting points again and again, etc

[ocular tb]

I see a lot of comments (here and other threads about 8v8) about how the first death on either team is a bigger difference in 8v8 as opposed to 12v12. I'm not disagreeing with that, but I do have to ask a question. What happens in a 12v12 match when a few players from each team die and the score is at 8-7? Is the disadvantage really that big at that point? I don't think so and I doubt most people here would say that it's a big disadvantage. Certainly not such a disadvantage that can't be overcome. The match at that point is still very close and can go either way. So why would it be different for starting out at 8v8?

At 8v7, whether it started with 12 players or 8 players per team, the match is not yet decided and that one mech deficit can usually be overcome fairly easily if your team plays decent enough. I just think the first death disadvantage is a little over exaggerated.

Edit: Reworded and added a few things for clarity.

Edited by ocular tb, 04 August 2017 - 10:44 PM.

[GoatHILL]

In the 8v8 days 35 alpha was considered OP fast assaults were 60kph and there were no clans. PGI put the stats out at 1 point the first team to lose 2 mechs lost +90% of the time.

Now you people want to throw mechs with over 50 alpha into this meatgrinder. Then you get the guy that brings an LRM King Crab I hope you brought your full on carry meta.

[fogsworth]

8v8 and 12v12, let people choose to join one queue or both.

[Mystere]

fogsworth, on 05 August 2017 - 12:38 AM, said:

8v8 and 12v12, let people choose to join one queue or both.

I'd rather QP is replaced with an "Endless War" mode where players drop in and out of a battle. Someone who literally wants a quick play only needs to not rejoin the queue.

Leave the so-called "matches" to the comp mode.

<shrugs>

Edited by Mystere, 05 August 2017 - 12:53 AM.

[Wildstreak]

ocular tb, on 04 August 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

I see a lot of comments (here and other threads about 8v8) about how the first death on either team is a bigger difference in 8v8 as opposed to 12v12. I'm not disagreeing with that, but I do have to ask a question. What happens in a 12v12 match when a few players from each team die and the score is at 8-7? Is the disadvantage really that big at that point? I don't think so and I doubt most people here would say that it's a big disadvantage. Certainly not such a disadvantage that can't be overcome. The match at that point is still very close and can go either way. So why would it be different for starting out at 8v8?

At 8v7, whether it started with 12 players or 8 players per team, the match is not yet decided and that one mech deficit can usually be overcome fairly easily if your team plays decent enough. I just think the first death disadvantage is a little over exaggerated.

Edit: Reworded and added a few things for clarity.

The difference:
- In a match that starts as 12v12, you get down to a 8v7 scenario. Usually Mechs on both sides have taken damage and while still fighting, are not doing charges so they do not die pointlessly. They have some caution to their play though they do play to win.
- In a match that starts as 8v8, one Mech is focused down for a 8v7. Survivors have taken less damage than the scenario above making them bolder thus it becomes easier for the 8 team to go gunning for another kill.

Also add in what GoatHILL said about higher Alphas making it easier to kill opponents. The people who bring bad builds can have a greater impact on who loses too. I once got in a 12v12 with 3 LRM Assaults out of 4 that joined that resulted in a loss. In 8v8 I picture MM would aim for 2/2/2/2 group composition, picture being on a team with 2 LRM Assaults and 1 other LRM boat.

Need I say more?

Mystere, on 05 August 2017 - 12:52 AM, said:

I'd rather QP is replaced with an "Endless War" mode where players drop in and out of a battle. Someone who literally wants a quick play only needs to not rejoin the queue.

Leave the so-called "matches" to the comp mode.

<shrugs>

Too similar to Transformers Universe and what they did made people leave the Beta and killed the game. Some of that has already been copied into MWO and has contributed to making people leave.

[sycocys]

I voted yes because it was way easier for good players to really shine.

MM and balance will in all likelihood turn out worse, but its not like the players that complain really grasp why they keep getting beat anyhow.

My one suggestion is to make the rewards lower to it actually encourages people to play in the harder game modes. Which would of course require that PGI develops out something unique for group queue and FW to make them an interesting experience.

[Mystere]

Wildstreak, on 05 August 2017 - 07:22 AM, said:

Too similar to Transformers Universe and what they did made people leave the Beta and killed the game. Some of that has already been copied into MWO and has contributed to making people leave.

Which part of the "Endless War" idea is already in MWO?

[ocular tb]

Wildstreak, on 05 August 2017 - 07:22 AM, said:

The difference:
- In a match that starts as 12v12, you get down to a 8v7 scenario. Usually Mechs on both sides have taken damage and while still fighting, are not doing charges so they do not die pointlessly. They have some caution to their play though they do play to win.
- In a match that starts as 8v8, one Mech is focused down for a 8v7. Survivors have taken less damage than the scenario above making them bolder thus it becomes easier for the 8 team to go gunning for another kill.

Also add in what GoatHILL said about higher Alphas making it easier to kill opponents. The people who bring bad builds can have a greater impact on who loses too. I once got in a 12v12 with 3 LRM Assaults out of 4 that joined that resulted in a loss. In 8v8 I picture MM would aim for 2/2/2/2 group composition, picture being on a team with 2 LRM Assaults and 1 other LRM boat.

That's debatable and judging by the threads and comments about how bad teammates are, I have doubts this kind of change in mentality happens all that often. Bad players will play bad regardless of health. It might be easier for the remaining 8 players to overcome the remaining 7 but, again, if the threads, comments, and personal experience are any indication, that's as random an outcome as anything. Timid and passive teammates is always a recurring theme here on the forums. Are those 8 players in the 8v8 scenario timid and passive? If so, then what's the likelihood of them actually making a push and destroying the remaining 7?

As far as bad builds, the enemy team will have to deal with them too sometimes. Yeah, it can be unbalanced at times but it's QP and it tends to be pretty random. Not much can be done about that. Sometimes you get the good builds and sometimes not. That problem won't ever go away in solo QP regardless of team size. I just accept it and move on. Sometimes I bring "bad" builds to break up the stale play of whatever the flavor of the month is. Others apparently do the same.

In regards to high alpha, that's a problem for sure and I would like to see that toned down regardless of what team size is. I don't think 8v8 will solve all our problems, but I think it could be a nice change from what we got now. I liked a previous comment about making it alternate between 8v8 and 12v12 whether by random chance or population. I think that would be a fair compromise.

[Alcom Isst]

The 8 additional players in 12v12 is a surprising strain on an already super-unoptimized super-CPU-bound game. 8v8 would be a great mode for players trying to play on a potato, until PGI magically finds a magical solution to its CPU-optimization, which might be never.

[Brain Cancer]

burns, on 22 July 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

Exactly. More matches running is a big plus for players, but means that PGI would have to cough up around 1/3 more server capacity. Were´nt inverse kinematics another victim of that change? Now that they´re planning to reintroduce IK´s, maybe there´s a chance for 8vs8 again after all.

I seriously doubt PGI is running any stressful level of servers right now, especially as population continues to decline outside of event time.

At the least, there should be a battle size option that's exercised before "safety valves" on the matchmaker kicks in.

If the MM can legit get 12v12, good.

If not, it checks again at 8v8. (Optionally, it can also check 4v4 at this step if 8v8 fails.)

If not, it opens the valve and rechecks 12v12, then 8v8 (4v4). If it can't find 8v8/4v4 with the valves opened, nobody's home anyway.

[Mystere]

Brain Cancer, on 05 August 2017 - 07:27 PM, said:

I seriously doubt PGI is running any stressful level of servers right now, especially as population continues to decline outside of event time.

What makes you think they are using more than a single el-cheapo server?

[Brain Cancer]

Mystere, on 05 August 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

What makes you think they are using more than a single el-cheapo server?

Single, multiples, whatever. They're guaranteed to be undercapacity even compared to play levels a year ago.

[El Bandito]

Tincan Nightmare, on 04 August 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

Don't see how this aids TTK. Once you lose a player, is it a big difference if its now 8 vs 7 compared to 12 vs 11? Things like nascar and deathballs will still occur, and people will still congregate at the same points on maps (just like all the fights happening around the caldera on the original caustic back when it was 8v8). It only really takes 2 or 3 mechs to quickly focus down and destroy any mech on the roster, so if anything it will simply increase the speed of matches as your starting with 2/3 of the players you currently do. I really don't see this being the fix people imagine it would be, each player is going to play the game their way and build mechs how they want just like now, reducing total number of players can't affect that. Canyon seems to play the same to me now with 12v12 as it ever did 8v8, you simply have more people to shoot at.

And more people shooting at one target. That simply reduces TTK.

With 8v8 good players are less dragged by potatoes, which is also a plus.

[Athom83]

GoatHILL, on 04 August 2017 - 11:11 PM, said:

In the 8v8 days 35 alpha was considered OP fast assaults were 60kph and there were no clans. PGI put the stats out at 1 point the first team to lose 2 mechs lost +90% of the time.
Now you people want to throw mechs with over 50 alpha into this meatgrinder. Then you get the guy that brings an LRM King Crab I hope you brought your full on carry meta.

Also, UACs don't count their damage fully. My Atlas for example has a stated 80 firepower from a UAC/20 + 2 MRM20s + 4 Medium lasers, yet I have an immediate damage of 100 because I can fire that UAC/20 off twice for 40 damage instead of just one shot of 20. Oh, and that said Atlas has almost full armor and a LFE 360 so its running around at 60 kph... Yah, 8v8 may not be such a good idea after all.

El Bandito, on 05 August 2017 - 09:04 PM, said:

And more people shooting at one target. That simply reduces TTK.
With 8v8 good players are less dragged by potatoes, which is also a plus.

But there are less good players and a higher concentration of potatoes, so despite the less drag you still have to carry harder. Even potatoes can be useful as meatshields.

[Yellonet]

Another plus of 8 vs 8 that I think would happen is that larger parts of the maps would get used.
Yes, it sounds strange but hang on, as it is now it can often be difficult to traverse a map without getting spotted by enemies, and then you might get pinned so you can't get to where you wanted to go, this happens alot because with 12 players it's easier to know where the enemies are and thus easier to restrict their movement. With 8 players in each team there would be more open space and therefore easier to move around and change positions without being instantly detected, hence more of the maps would be used resulting in more interesting matches.

[Brain Cancer]

Athom83, on 06 August 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:

But there are less good players and a higher concentration of potatoes, so despite the less drag you still have to carry harder. Even potatoes can be useful as meatshields.

Given 8v8, it's actually better odds for the bad players, as they're less likely to be dumped in with a shark as a sacrifice to the MM giving up.