13 replies to this topic

[IONTIGER]

As I can remember from the novels partaining to Battletech Canon. InnerSphere and Clan tech started getting mixed among all the chasis's during the 3060's. Most importantly, Clan mechs and InnerSphere Mechs were being fielded to fight side by side by both InnerSphere and Clan MechWarriors. That should be considered for any future update for Community Warfare. Lastly, when will there be a player vs npc? Community Warfare looks mostly dead.

[Koniving]

IONTIGER, on 22 July 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

Lastly, when will there be a player vs npc? Community Warfare looks mostly dead.

There won't be.
The closest you're going to get in "Mechwarrior 5."

[Kaptain]

Koniving, on 22 July 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

There won't be.
The closest you're going to get in "Mechwarrior 5."

Curious on your opinion Koniving. Do you expect this to suck? I mean personally I feel like there is more "Feeling"/roll playing in any of the opening cinematics from MW3/4 and MCG than in all of MWO. The objective in this game just "dont get it" and I am curious if this will plague the MW future.

[Koniving]

Kaptain, on 22 July 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

Curious on your opinion Koniving. Do you expect this to suck? I mean personally I feel like there is more "Feeling"/roll playing in any of the opening cinematics from MW3/4 and MCG than in all of MWO. The objective in this game just "dont get it" and I am curious if this will plague the MW future.

Good question. I guess it depends of how much of "MWO" bleeds over. You might notice a lot of great details here. Among them: "Real" mech bob with the pilot's head moving with it instead of just a cheap lazy cockpit hobble like MWO.

Remember classic MWO?
Watch the cockpit movement of the Hunchback


Now watch it.


With Bryan Eckman at the helm (like MWO had in closed beta), we're seeing some decent attention to detail. Not perfect by a long shot (SRMs fired in a lazy straight line....STILL using single shot "Mech Rifles" instead of actual "Autocannons"), but it's a start.

I like how the HUD is curved, as if either displayed on the cockpit 'glass' or on your Neuro Helm's visor as opposed to a flat display like MWO.

They claim it will generate missions, maps will use procedural generation techniques, etc. We'll see. But in the beginning you can hear the voice is split as George ...can't spell his last name, but the "Technician" voice actor is giving you a readout of your status. The voice is broken as if it is reading the status and then playing a line associated with it using a basic list-system.

"You're out of LRMs, don't have any cash."
"The left arm actuator's acting up again... you know the one we got from X."
As if the game is reading off of a checklist with a pause to choose and load the next appropriate voice clip. You wouldn't want this in a 'show' model if you're trying to keep the spice up to 11. But if your game is supposed to generate content similar to a rogue-like, an open world, or any game with 'near infinite replayability'... then you will have this flaw. And in the pre alpha we are already hearing it. Could be a good sign.

There are some bits that are off, the commander voice... or why your Technician calls an alert and not someone with some military authority... Suddenly Raven, of a class that doesn't yet exist.

We'll see.
Texture wise it looks boatloads better than MWO. And in terms of lighting, too.

Edited by Koniving, 22 July 2017 - 05:30 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Maybe if they had an actual salvage system. I would be okay with it. Especially if the salvaged gear gets destroyed permanently when used in battle.

I think it would add immersion if they also had a market for all of the salvage. But people can switch all willy nilly and just farm either side.

[Nero Akavar]

I fully agree that we should have all mixed tech moving forward. Basically any weapon on any mech and both sides should be able to field what ever they want. Additionally they need to FIX the weight. All players should be able to bring in the same tonnage on both sides.

[Mr Salty Silva]

Shouldnt at the very least the Ghost bears have acess to mixed techs? ( *Cough Cough* Ghost Bear Dominion *cough cough* )
But yeah, both techs available and weight normalized and i believe we get this game balanced a bit more easily.

[50 50]

Might be able to do it by giving the Clan mechs a weight penalty for the drop decks.
So in terms of drop deck tonnage limits, the clan mechs might each weight 5 tons more.

[BTGbullseye]

I would love to toss some regular IS Large Lasers on some of my Clan mechs... Would really help with the massive heat problem I keep having with them.

[The Basilisk]

Canonwise Clan and Is tech are incompatible.
There are some very rare highprofile celebs driving mixtech mechs that where juryrigged for them by some of the most genius Techs in the Galaxy but normaly it is a no go.
On IS side the Clanweapons that are designed for Omnipods lack crucial components like control and targeting interfaces that would normaly be provided by the omnipods infrastructure and vice versa the IS weapons carry redundant components that would make them inefficient to adapt when trying to fit them into Clan omnipods.

If you want prove of this please read Strategic Operations, p. 182 "Maintenance, Salvage, Repair & Customization - Clan/Inner Sphere Incompatibility/OmniPods.

[...] The modular attachment points to mount OmniMech weaponry and equipment (equipment constructed in an OmniMech Pod) renders such equipment incompatible with standard BattleMechs. Even for identical classes and brands of equipment, only the ammunition can be used interchangeably. [...]

If you skim the IIC mechs or Garrison Class Clan Battlemechs (nonOmni) that are used by the Clans you will notice that those are either old Starleague mechs that have been reworked or even prestarleague that where taken as templates to construct entirely new mechs.
Clan techs will rather scrap and exploit salvaged IS mechs for raw materials than refit them.
There are a few mentionings though that in the early stages of the Invasion IS Battlemechs where salvaged repaired out of captured spare parts and used as garrision forces.
Post Civilwar/Jihad period /MW-Darkage mechs parted with that principle and introduced mixtech mechs that where specificaly designed to carry mixtech.

Edited by The Basilisk, 29 December 2017 - 05:33 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

The Basilisk, on 29 December 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

Canonwise Clan and Is tech are incompatible.
There are some very rare highprofile celebs driving mixtech mechs that where juryrigged for them by some of the most genius Techs in the Galaxy but normaly it is a no go.
On IS side the Clanweapons that are designed for Omnipods lack crucial components like control and targeting interfaces that would normaly be provided by the omnipods infrastructure and vice versa the IS weapons carry redundant components that would make them inefficient to adapt when trying to fit them into Clan omnipods.

If you want prove of this please read Strategic Operations, p. 182 "Maintenance, Salvage, Repair & Customization - Clan/Inner Sphere Incompatibility/OmniPods.

[...] The modular attachment points to mount OmniMech weaponry and equipment (equipment constructed in an OmniMech Pod) renders such equipment incompatible with standard BattleMechs. Even for identical classes and brands of equipment, only the ammunition can be used interchangeably. [...]

If you skim the IIC mechs or Garrison Class Clan Battlemechs (nonOmni) that are used by the Clans you will notice that those are either old Starleague mechs that have been reworked or even prestarleague that where taken as templates to construct entirely new mechs.
Clan techs will rather scrap and exploit salvaged IS mechs for raw materials than refit them.
There are a few mentionings though that in the early stages of the Invasion IS Battlemechs where salvaged repaired out of captured spare parts and used as garrision forces.
Post Civilwar/Jihad period /MW-Darkage mechs parted with that principle and introduced mixtech mechs that where specificaly designed to carry mixtech.

While i don't think mixed tech would be good for mwo, i'd like to counter your statement with mixed tech appearances in lore and scenario books, most famously the red corsairs pirate band running retrofitted battlemechs with clan laser weapondry exclusively.

[The Basilisk]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 30 December 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

While i don't think mixed tech would be good for mwo, i'd like to counter your statement with mixed tech appearances in lore and scenario books, most famously the red corsairs pirate band running retrofitted battlemechs with clan laser weapondry exclusively.

Partly true. Remember that this goes for Clan tech in Clanrefitted mechs that have been specificaly reworked to carry Clanequipment, and Clanequipment only...no Mixtech here.
And those mechs are essentially not mixtech but Clantech reconstructions of IS Mechs specificaly designed to carry Clantech...and in the sourcebooks those mechs are labeled with (C) for Clantech versions.
f.e. the RedCorsairs Battlemaster was a briancached royal starleague mech (wich itself means it is not IS tech standart but rather the tech stadart where Clantech stems from) that has been reworked to carry its loadout and served as prototype for for the production version Battlemaster C2.
There realy is no appearance of mixtech in scenarios and lore except for some hardly working juryriggs and celeb mechs.
Those IS mechs that are actually have been reworked (its like reworking a 1970 VW Beetle to fit a modern day Porsche 718 Cayman engine in it....you have to disassemble and rework the whole Car and replace most of its components and what you get will mostlikely look only vaguely like the Beetle you started with)
are actually fully Clantech except in appearance.

Again there is no easy interchanging or mixing of those two techbases except in Units specificaly designed to do so.

Edited by The Basilisk, 31 December 2017 - 03:30 AM.

[Throe]

[removed by user]

Edited by Throe, 05 October 2023 - 11:39 AM.

[The Basilisk]

Throe, on 05 January 2018 - 12:39 PM, said:

While I understand the sentiment of "staying true to the lore", we've already broken *far* off that line of reasoning for MWO. The simple act of changing an entire loadout in moments between matches means we effectively each have a "genius BattleMech Technician" working in our own personal stable. Not to mention the fact that each player can own as many 'Mechs as they can buy(there is literally no limit that I'm aware of), and in fact most own many. Tens if not hundreds. While a typical mercenary in the Lore(especially in the IS, where it was a hereditary thing predominantly) would have one 'Mech they ran exclusively, because 'Mechs simply weren't that common in the first place, and having two or more was almost unheard of, except for the largest formal military units(Steiner comes to mind).

Beyond that, most of the in-game weaponry has already significantly departed from the "Lore" or "canon" values, by necessity. The simple fact is, this game is played out in real time, not turn based, and uses live pilots with the capability to choose where each shot will land with *0* randomization of hits. Those two facts combined mean we simply can't even think about adhering to anything in the Lore beyond an initial basis(because, honestly, there was no better place to start).

So, in the interest of truly balancing the game, I think allowing mixed tech would take us a long way there. While it would make a great many pieces of equipment fully obsolete(I think they could pretty easily adjust pricing appropriately after things settle down, making obsolete equipment the equivalent of "budget" equipment for new players), I think it would be great for the game in the long run.

But then, I also think they need to do the following:
1) Remove hardpoint limitations entirely. Hardpoint "power creep" has reached a point where the argument that they were implemented to prevent boating is largely meaningless now, and without that reason, I see no reason to leave them in. The only other argument left is the "Lore" argument, which is already debunked above. (Edit: I realize there is another argument, but it has nothing to do with gameplay or balance, and that is the fact that without hardpoint limitations, many 'Mechs become "homogenized" and players will have less reason to purchase more 'Mechs beyond a certain point. This is a valid consideration, and perhaps the only reason we still(and probably will continue to) have Hardpoint limitations, honestly).
2) Make speed correlate to *actual* fielded 'Mech weight. If I take a 90 ton Atlas, the engine in that Atlas being no different from the engine in a Highlander, should allow me to move at the same speed as a Highlander with the same engine rating in it.
3) Remove ghost heat, and implement instead a "targeting load" metric, that would cause weapon divergence in the case of too many of whatever type of weapon being fired within .5 seconds of each other. This would: i) allow alpha firing at close range with relatively little penalty(meaning every 'Mech would have a valid "oh ****" button), AND ii) be *very* obvious to new players when firing too many weapons at once.
4) Implement some meaningful overheat penalties starting at 60% with something like a movement debuff, so that even firing a single alpha strike(with most 'Mechs) carries with it some meaningful disadvantages, avoiding the current black and white overheat mechanic we have now, and helping new players notice more easily when they are beginning to overheat.

Where did you "already debunk the lore argument"?
You just stated that MWO disreagarded some stuff because PGI was either to tardy or incapable to implement some of the (often contradictory and matter of interpretation) rules and guidelines of the Battletech Tabletop and Novel content.
Well sure...nobody argues that some adaptions have to be made when transitioning from some scify novels or from a TT rulebook...but outright disregarding one of the basic core rules in the Classic Battletech timeline just because somebody strikes the whim to do so?

Also as you already, and quite rightfully so, remarked this would bring a boatload of problems with it that realy are not needed by this game....so why not just continue to solve all the many little problems of MWO instead of creating sh..loads of new ones?

And by the way...if you would care any bit for the lore of Battletech you would know that House Steiner is not a military Unit but the royal family that rules the Lyran Commonwealth or the later Lyran Alliance.
The State is organized like a compromise between constitutional monarchy and true monarchy.
The military arm of the LC is the Lyran Commonwealth Armed Forces. LCAF

Further you should know that Classic Battletech Tabeltop rules are centered around 10 seconds timeintervalls (one battleround) and where originaly taken or inspired by computergames....so the "hurdurr ita is a Tabletop rule, you no take tabletop rule directly to computa gamez" is completely nonsentical since the Weapons firing rates, damage, heat and firing modes are already balanced and centered around time.
There was no need to change this, like the implementation of IS ACs as big single slug throwers it is just a matter of artistic licensing (or simple tardyness) of the makers of MWO.

Edited by The Basilisk, 08 January 2018 - 06:05 AM.