1809 replies to this topic

[naterist]

Ok, ive read it all. Someones lying. Hg says they own all of macross except the right to make derivative characters, and pgi says they only own the macross movie footage. Both sides cite the same court cases, however, hg says the most recent one (the 2017 arbitration) doesnt count because arbitrations dont count in court (yet they happily bring up the fafsa arbitration). Pgi says the 2017 arbitration DOES count, since it was reinforced by a court or some such ****.

Only way to guess the outcome is to read the cited courtcases i guess. Anyone wanna read em, or link em for us?

[Horseman]

naterist, on 10 April 2018 - 08:16 AM, said:

Ok, ive read it all. Someones lying. Hg says they own all of macross except the right to make derivative characters, and pgi says they only own the macross movie footage. Both sides cite the same court cases, however, hg says the most recent one (the 2017 arbitration) doesnt count because arbitrations dont count in court (yet they happily bring up the fafsa arbitration). Pgi says the 2017 arbitration DOES count, since it was reinforced by a court or some such ****.

Only way to guess the outcome is to read the cited courtcases i guess. Anyone wanna read em, or link em for us?

mirrorcreator.com/files/0HB49UBY/Harmony_Gold_USA_Inc_v_Tatsunoko_Production_Co_Ltd__cacdce-17-06034__0016.0.pdf_links

Leonard French released a commentary on this a while back (both cover the same thing, the top one is abbreviated from the bottom one).

Edited by Horseman, 10 April 2018 - 09:23 AM.

[naterist]

Horseman, on 10 April 2018 - 09:22 AM, said:

mirrorcreator.com/files/0HB49UBY/Harmony_Gold_USA_Inc_v_Tatsunoko_Production_Co_Ltd__cacdce-17-06034__0016.0.pdf_links

Leonard French released a commentary on this a while back (both cover the same thing, the top one is abbreviated from the bottom one).

Lol, i just watched that. Im looking for a copy of the text, because every summary states hg doesnt own the 41 characters and their images, but hgs filing says that isnt true, which if the summaries are to believed, is a straight up lie.

[Horseman]

naterist, on 10 April 2018 - 07:22 AM, said:

If their doing this for bigwest because bigwest told them to sue all infringers, but bigwest gave battletech rights to the unseen, then is battletech/mechwarrior really an infringer? Lol, this one i gotta read, gimme 20 minutes. Ill edit in my WTF moments as i go.
(snip)
In conclusion, hgs arguemrnts are ****** crazy weird.

And one bonus point: they both admit Tatsunoko did not license them derivative rights and then claim they acquired them as package deal by obtaining rights to the show.

naterist, on 10 April 2018 - 09:28 AM, said:

Lol, i just watched that. Im looking for a copy of the text, because every summary states hg doesnt own the 41 characters and their images, but hgs filing says that isnt true, which if the summaries are to believed, is a straight up lie.

A copy of the arbitration ruling? I linked that at the beginning of the post you quoted.
Here it is again: https://www.mirrorcr...016.0.pdf_links

Edited by Horseman, 10 April 2018 - 09:30 AM.

[Metus regem]

naterist, on 10 April 2018 - 09:28 AM, said:

Lol, i just watched that. Im looking for a copy of the text, because every summary states hg doesnt own the 41 characters and their images, but hgs filing says that isnt true, which if the summaries are to believed, is a straight up lie.

*hands Naterist a torch

Want to join us in some heavy pillaging and burning of the HG offices now?

This has been a thing for BT/Macross fans for years... we knew HG didn't actually have the rights in the first place... This came to light after the kerfuffle of Macross Plus airing in North America.

Edited by Metus regem, 10 April 2018 - 09:34 AM.

[naterist]

Horseman, on 10 April 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

And one bonus point: they both admit Tatsunoko did not license them derivative rights and then claim they acquired them as package deal by obtaining rights to the show.

A copy of the arbitration ruling? I linked that at the beginning of the post you quoted.
Here it is again: https://www.mirrorcr...016.0.pdf_links

Sorry, didnt see it. Thank you

Metus regem, on 10 April 2018 - 09:33 AM, said:

*hands Naterist a torch

Want to join us in some heavy pillaging and looting of the HG offices now?

This has been a thing for BT/Macross fans for years... we knew HG didn't actually have the rights in the first place... This came to light after the kerfuffle of Macross Plus airing in North America.

Their offices are a 15 minute drive from my house, after we burn it down we can crash at my pad and have an mwo lanparty. I supply the fire if you get the whiskey

[Metus regem]

naterist, on 10 April 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

Their offices are a 15 minute drive from my house, after we burn it down we can crash at my pad and have an mwo lanparty. I supply the fire if you get the whiskey

Done and done. We've got good Whiskey in Canada... also good beer here too, not that piss flavored yellow water you find in the U.S.

[naterist]

Metus regem, on 10 April 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

Done and done. We've got good Whiskey in Canada... also good beer here too, not that piss flavored yellow water you find in the U.S.

Imma need some pure ethanol after sorting through all this noise.

[Metus regem]

naterist, on 10 April 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

Imma need some pure ethanol after sorting through all this noise.

The tears of Harmony Gold will suffice for me.

[slide]

That was a rather large flurry of paperwork.

What I would like to know is when or even if the Judge is going to make a decision on on this?

It seems to me that both sides could just literally bury the Judge in increasing piles of paper (read cow excrement) with extension after extension, such that a point is never reached about the letter Rogatory, let a lone an actual trial.

Can the Judge actually get to a point where he drags everyone into court to have it out? and if you haven't got your **** together bad luck.

[Nightbird]

Would a loss for HG here mean anything the next time around?

[Pariah Devalis]

Nightbird, on 10 April 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

Would a loss for HG here mean anything the next time around?

It would mean they need to be good little brats and sit in the corner silently the next time someone even considers making money off of a mecha licence in the west. Instead of, ya know, suing everything.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 10 April 2018 - 04:09 PM.

[naterist]

Adridos, on 10 April 2018 - 05:51 AM, said:

https://drive.google...iBG1d3ovL30z-Bz (From the BT Forums)
This stuff is damn hard to read without smashing something. Aaaaah.

Anyway. HG is essentially throwing a tantrum. They cite everything but the 2002 case. They double and triple-guess their defense in good faith to make the judge give up and just stop reading through all this. And oh boy do they repeat themselves a lot.

Of note are things like:

• Claiming that PGI cannot say anything about Big West's license. The only ones allowed to do so are people at Big West. ~ Reasonable argument, I'd guess. This is clearly built on the grounds of hoping Japanese have had enough of their **** and won't come over.
  
• Claiming that because Big West did not use the copyright it had filed back in 2002, it's invalid.
  
• Claiming the Japanese courts ruled this exclusively to Japan (yeah, and then they went on to copyright stuff in the US for kicks, right?)
  
• Claiming that because Big West stopped trying to sue them, they acknowledge HG as the owners.
  
• Never mention their own attempt to trademark Macross in Asia and Japan, which got shut down.
  
• Literally modify the damn arbitration in the text itself (Page 28-17 has an unedited account saying one thing, then they proceed to write something else entirely on Page 28-25).
  
• In case the judge can read, they threw in several paragraphs that arbitrations don't really hold any value outside of the parties involved in them.

Just die already, you ********.


Anyway, if you know anyone who speaks Japanese at the adequate level, here's the relevant ruling about the characters in question: http://www.courts.go...2014_hanrei.pdf
If you could maybe ask them to translate and confirm/deny HG's allegations that it only cites Japanese-only ownership, we could be half a year ahead of the those thugs at Harmony Gold.

I put it in google translate bit by bit. it seems pretty clear from the first paragraph, even despite googles wonkey way of translating, that the characters dont belong to tatsunoko or harmoney gold by extension..

[legionofvega]

When is the next hearing/session/response by PGI? I thought I read somewhere that PGI intends to respond to this bogus again? At what point does the judge make a ruling?

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

legionofvega, on 11 April 2018 - 04:55 AM, said:

When is the next hearing/session/response by PGI? I thought I read somewhere that PGI intends to respond to this bogus again? At what point does the judge make a ruling?

Those are all great questions... the problem is, we don't have any answers, at least, not in regards to the judge making a ruling.

That's the thing about court proceedings like this, it could be, the judge has a good amount of patience, and is willing to let the two parties sling mud for a while, other times, the judge is impatient, and demands that everything be quick and to the point, with little drawing out.

Now, this judge does seem to be a bit of a middle ground so far. And you have to remember, they likely do not have half the information we have [we in general here on the forums, as battletech/macross fans, or even as Robotech fans.]

Given our situation, we all have a vested interest in this, we're all digging through as much dirt as we can as laymen... but the judge, the judge is just that, a judge, he's chilling, and just playing though things the way he handles them in his courtroom.

So who knows, at any time, the judge could decide "Screw it all, you've ran circles enough." or he could decided to wait the year for the paperwork from japan, whatever... it all literally comes down to the judge at that point I think... which sucks for us who want a quick resolution... because we're waiting on what's essentially a 4th party to get tired of all the bs.

[legionofvega]

Thanks Sunset, appreciate the response. You've got a good point in that many of us have a vested interest and have been over the details for years.

[evilauthor]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 11 April 2018 - 05:01 AM, said:

Now, this judge does seem to be a bit of a middle ground so far. And you have to remember, they likely do not have half the information we have [we in general here on the forums, as battletech/macross fans, or even as Robotech fans.]

Given our situation, we all have a vested interest in this, we're all digging through as much dirt as we can as laymen... but the judge, the judge is just that, a judge, he's chilling, and just playing though things the way he handles them in his courtroom.

Good point. A good Judge only makes decisions based on the information presented in court. If he knew what we knew prior to the case coming up in court, or worse, if he was a Battletech fan, HG could truthfully argue that he was biased and get the whole case thrown out of court. Or at least start everything over with a new judge.

[Adridos]

legionofvega, on 11 April 2018 - 04:55 AM, said:

When is the next hearing/session/response by PGI? I thought I read somewhere that PGI intends to respond to this bogus again? At what point does the judge make a ruling?

They have stated their intent to counter HG's defense during the whole barrage thing. So it's 2~3 days until the next thing in the case happens. We need to hope the BT forums allow the thread again by then, since that's where people actually pay for and publicise the relevant documents.

But yeah, as Sunset said, this will only go on for as long as judge doesn't put a stop to it and either gives us Christmas in April or makes us wait until actual Christmas for any new developments.

[Trystan Thorne]

The thread got opened again on the BT forums.
Hope it will stay that way (and therefore I rather reply here ).

As everyone here, I'm really hoping that HG will lose the case of course.
I just wonder... I know we all love some of those iconic unseen, but with all the great designs from PGI these days, I believe it's probably better just to completely avoid the unseen altogether in the future.
Obviously that would not stop HG suddenly claiming rights on the Atlas.

Sorry, don't plan to de-rail the thread here.
Just another BT nerd anxiously awaiting the next update on the case.

[Adridos]

Trystan Thorne, on 11 April 2018 - 06:42 PM, said:

I just wonder... I know we all love some of those iconic unseen, but with all the great designs from PGI these days, I believe it's probably better just to completely avoid the unseen altogether in the future.

Spoiler

The issue is that by far most of the fans would like to repeat Succession Wars era ad infinitum. The appeal of the setting for them dropping with each successive era. While I am strongly against the sentiment, it's there and it's why MWO started as a 3049 game, why MW5 starts as a 3025 game, why Battletech starts as a 3025 game and so on, why original MW5 was supposed to start as a 3025 game, et cetera. The crux of the issue is the unseen were the only real mechs durinhg the Succession Wars era, with the others being added later and fulfilling niche roles compared to the mainstrays.

So if you want to make these fans happy, you have to go 3025-3049. And if you do so, lacking unseens becomes an issue. It's a bit of a catch 22 situation.

Edited by Adridos, 11 April 2018 - 09:48 PM.