23 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

I had wondered what could possibly make me consider taking LMGs over MGs for the same weight
I had thought, why not range?

Being able to meaningfully damage something at 300M is a good trade, even if it deals half the damage.
Some Damage > No Damage

I just hadn't thought it would make such a difference...My SadCat is loving LMGs and HLLs.



Onto the content...how do the different CritDamMults actually affect the weapons?

The raw numbers I ran

Spoiler

52%

25+6 one
14+3 two
3+1 three

LMG 14x CritDamMult
0.07 dam

MG 9x
0.1 dam

HMG 6x
0.14 dam



LMG
31x 0.98
17x 1.96
4x 2.94 critDam

avg 0.18823 DPS
%imp 62%
250M Range


MG
31x 0.9
17x 1.8
4x 2.7 critDam

avg 0.21115 DPS
%imp 52%
130M range


HMG
31x .84
17x 1.68
4x 2.52 critDam

avg 0.2471 DPS
%imp 43%
80M range

As you should know by now, MGs get both a bonus to Crit (+10% between the three values) and a Crit Damage Multiplier
It's also different for all 3 MGs

LMGs have 14x CritDamMult
MGs have 9x
HMGs have 6x

Of course, the higher the CritDamMult, the lower the actual damage, in this scenario

After running the numbers, the LMG gains the most improvement from hitting structure, going from 0.07 average Dam/tick to 0.188 Dam/tick, ~2.7 times as much damage

MGs go from 0.1 Dam/tick to 0.21 Dam/tick, roughly double damage, which is mostly in line to what it was (plus the 0.05 damage buff)

HMGs, with their impressive 0.14 Dam/tick, only gain 1.77 times the bonus


Multiply those numbers by 10 for their DPS values
(250M) LMG 0.7 -> 1.88 DPS
(130M) MG 1.0 - > 2.11 DPS
(80M) HMG 1.4 -> 2.47 DPS


All...pretty darn good numbers, actually. Of course, Structure isn't always what's available, and with the short range of the MG and HMG, that's always been too big a sacrifice.

But, the LMG can still Crit things out at 400-500M effectively, with some range bonuses.


As a strange twist of events...my favourite MGs to use are actually LMGs, because of that range advantage.
It's free DPS with laser burns, and just destroys internal components.

Mix them with HLLs on the SadCat, and it's a mid range monster...if extremely fragile
It's almost keeping up with my average MC Mk2 stats, and that thing is an outright monster (though, no SupaHunchDakkaBear, thankfully)



I'd almost say LMGs are the most useful MGs, because of that versatility.
Though, in an organized Brawl deck, HMGs with their outright superior damage would win. Getting into that range is the difficult part, and it's extremely situational. I don't like situational.

[Curccu]

I was running same sadcat build in CW last two days, it's awesome.
Sadly we don't have our multi ballistics slot MLX or ACH yet, when we get those LMGs have been smashed by nerfbat already
I wish MG and HMG would get some range and cone love.

[Tyroki]

It's funny.
It's not as if LMGs are the best either, and the right MG for the job is flipped.

HMGs are still amazing if you want a dps weapon that can crit, if you can fit them.
Great for small mechs that can get in to optimal faster.

LMGs are amazing for anyone who can fit weapons that quickly melt armour.
Larger mechs are generally slower and want the range to compensate, but have plenty of gun to melt armour.

MGs are in a weird place, but you fit them when you don't necessarily want to crit, but are using extra tonnage. They're good to increase dps, while still maintaining the ability to crit.

I like it. You have choices.
Still, I feel like you're more likely to choose LMGs and HMGs over MGs, putting MGs in a strange place.

[DaMuchi]

LMG does 0.28dps at 400m, so I can hardly say it is decent at that range but I definitely agree that the heavier the MG, the less useful it gets. it's too hard to get into HMG optimal range long enough for HMG to outperform LMG or MG for that matter.

[Wintersdark]

DaMuchi, on 24 July 2017 - 01:31 AM, said:

LMG does 0.28dps at 400m, so I can hardly say it is decent at that range but I definitely agree that the heavier the MG, the less useful it gets. it's too hard to get into HMG optimal range long enough for HMG to outperform LMG or MG for that matter.

Crit damage doesn't scale by range. Your damage to internal.components at 400m is equal to your damage to internal components at 4m.

Also, the 15% carrythrough is based off crit damage, so it doesn't scale either. Just something to think about.

[DaMuchi]

Wintersdark, on 24 July 2017 - 01:59 AM, said:

Crit damage doesn't scale by range. Your damage to internal.components at 400m is equal to your damage to internal components at 4m.

Also, the 15% carrythrough is based off crit damage, so it doesn't scale either. Just something to think about.

icic. I didn't know about this. in that case, wtf is HMG? lol!

[ingramli]

For the situation which i will use MGs, the standard MG is still my pick. LMGs sounds good for their range, but then i wont bother to use MGs at 200m, the dps is too pathetic even taking its tonnage into consideration. The HMGs are okay in some experts (of CQC) hands, but only if they weight half (same as standard MG/LMG), also their ammo count per ton is also less than standard MG, for CQC capable mech, they are light in weight, and severely limited in tonnage, the tonnage of a HMG allow 2 standard MGs to be mounted (if there are sufficient slots and hard points), they are only really good if the mech has no better use of tonnage for anything else......or in some very unique build - such as the dirty ninja (Pirates' Bane with stealth, backstab someone with its dual HMGs)

Edited by ingramli, 24 July 2017 - 02:56 AM.

[El Bandito]

I had some success with combining IS MPL/ML with LMGs on my Ember and Locust since their range is similar.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 July 2017 - 03:25 AM.

[JC Daxion]

I swapped all MG builds to LMG.. Only a very fast mech am i loading up heavies, and even then i have been slanting towards LMG's. Maybe a priates bane? or are they to heavy?


I think the only mech i have with HMG's is my Cicada 3C

[Khobai]

Quote

Crit damage doesn't scale by range. Your damage to internal.components at 400m is equal to your damage to internal components at 4m.

thats wrong. crit damage is based on the actual damage done not the damage value of the weapon.

that was changed a long time ago in order to prevent weapons like AC10s/PPC from doing like 9 damage to armor but only 1 damage to internal structure and still getting a lucky triple crit that could knock out three pieces of equipment.

same goes for the bonus 15% damage to internal structure, thats based on the actual crit damage done, not the damage value of the weapon.

Edited by Khobai, 24 July 2017 - 03:42 AM.

[jss78]

I really like the LMG's in any mid-range 'mech with extra B hardpoints. They don't do much, but it's a bit of heat-free extra DPS at very low tonnage.

2 with ½ ton ammo, or 4 with 1 ton ammo, whichever is nice. You can go light on ammo since you aren't sitting in people rear arcs all game.

[Wildstreak]

I prefer LMGs mainly for range, comes close to range sync very nicely with some weapons.

[Wintersdark]

Khobai, on 24 July 2017 - 03:33 AM, said:

thats wrong. crit damage is based on the actual damage done not the damage value of the weapon.

that was changed a long time ago in order to prevent weapons like AC10s/PPC from doing like 9 damage to armor but only 1 damage to internal structure and still getting a lucky triple crit that could knock out three pieces of equipment.

same goes for the bonus 15% damage to internal structure, thats based on the actual crit damage done, not the damage value of the weapon.

when was that changed? It's been an issue forever, and was a major part of why a 10/PPC weapons where far better crit weapons than anything else.

Not saying your wrong, but I don't remember it changing.

[Asym]

The down side of the SHC is that to mount 6 LMG's, you lose ECM....

Yes, two heavy lasers and 6 LMG is a neat and effective tool, but...............you have to get to the fight first.

I've seen the OP in action and Yes, it does really work late in the game. It's just a question of what the Team needs SHC's to do?

[Chris Lowrey]

Wintersdark, on 24 July 2017 - 05:13 AM, said:

when was that changed? It's been an issue forever, and was a major part of why a 10/PPC weapons where far better crit weapons than anything else.

Not saying your wrong, but I don't remember it changing.

Crit damage has always been modified off of physical damage delt. If a weapon is doing half damage for being outside optimal range, it will also deal half the crit damage as well.

The reason Gauss / PPC's got a modifier that reduced the way it interacted with the critical system had more to do with them being the only weapons that could reliably crit out a weapon from range due to their high damage and high range profiles.

Another wrinkle in this to consider that I haven't seen mentioned yet is Crit chance buffs. Bonus MG damage is based on them physically getting the critical hit in the first place. So 'Mechs with natural Crit chance reduction buffs (Atlas / Annihilator) or players who invest heavily in "Reinforced casing" nodes in the skill tree reduces the amount of times the MG's score a critical hit, and there for, also reduce their overall boosted damage dealt.

[Mar-X-maN]

I am still a Machine Gun Preacher

[Wintersdark]

Chris Lowrey, on 24 July 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

Crit damage has always been modified off of physical damage delt. If a weapon is doing half damage for being outside optimal range, it will also deal half the crit damage as well.

Maybe since you started, but this is objectively incorrect.

I probably still have video, but I tested this exhaustively back in the day as part of my posts regarding crit weapon effectiveness. I was able to get 1-3 weapons destroyed on a target mech at extreme range with a PPC/AC10. That's knowing:

1) firing at a target that still has armor remaining so the components have not yet taken damage
2) firing well beyond half way from optimal range to max so the weapons do <5 damage, meaning it would require a triple crit hitting one object to destroy it and thus 2x and 3x components destroyed should be impossible.

I was able to get - on the hit removing the last bit of armor - 1, 2, and 3 items destroyed on that single hit that removes the last bit of armor.

I tested this VERY carefully. It may well not be the case today, but it definitely was in the past.

Quote

The reason Gauss / PPC's got a modifier that reduced the way it interacted with the critical system had more to do with them being the only weapons that could reliably crit out a weapon from range due to their high damage and high range profiles.

Another wrinkle in this to consider that I haven't seen mentioned yet is Crit chance buffs. Bonus MG damage is based on them physically getting the critical hit in the first place. So 'Mechs with natural Crit chance reduction buffs (Atlas / Annihilator) or players who invest heavily in &quot;Reinforced casing&quot; nodes in the skill tree reduces the amount of times the MG's score a critical hit, and there for, also reduce their overall boosted damage dealt.

Maybe not the reason you changed that, but gauss and ppc's we're strongly better critting weapons than anything else even accounting for LBX crit buffs simply because padding wasn't useful against them. A whole bunch of low damage crits get spread, while the single 10+ damage crit was a guaranteed (if you crit of course) destroyed component.

Even today LBX's are poor crit weapons due to this - the spread ensures that you don't hit the target section with all the pellets, and the pellets are still spreading damage.

[Snazzy Dragon]

I share the sentiment about LMGs being my favorite of the three; HMGs chew through ammo like it's nothing and with that kind of weight investment for such a low range weapon I don't find it interesting. Regular MGs are "fine" (I mean, it's still an MG), but LMGs can be used out to mid range and add extra damage for laser burns, and with that many ticks of crit rolls going out you're sure to kill a few internals, if not what section you're aiming for outright

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 24 July 2017 - 09:56 AM.

[FireStoat]

I like Light Machine guns the best. The point of an MG is slicing a mech up once the armor's been cracked. The Light MG can do this most reliably at increased ranges, which is nice to mix in with medium lasers.

[Spheroid]

On Alpine I knocked out the single LRM15 on the RA of a Catapult at 525 meters with nine AC-20 shots. That would appear to support crit damage scaling, but smurfy doesn't give me crit specifics for the AC-20.