44 replies to this topic

[Toothless]

You cant read any balance discussion without facetime being thrown out there as the defining factor. You HAVE to be able to fire a weapon and then torso twist and/or move back in to cover within half a second, or a weapon has an unforgivably long discharge time that immediately knocks you out of the the top tiers of gameplay. Some are even long enough that you get charged cbills for even using them and your team gets to kick you in the groin.

However, if you do manage to use these laughing stock, joke of a weapon class on an opponent and cause effective damage without sustaining an IMMEDIATE crippling assault that breaks your left kidney, then it is PURELY because every member of the 12 man team opposing you is tier 4 and 5, are inebriated and texting on their phones while playing. There is no other reason you would be able to use one of these god forsaken weapons effectively, and you should be ashamed for not using one of the select few weapons able to discharge in a nanosecond. GG get good and quit

[Aiden Skye]

Long facetime isn't ideal but not impossible to work around. Slap on some ECM and go for legs or backs. There's no twisting off leg damage. Lots of people are also quite happy to eat 2 seconds worth of lasers before getting out of the way. Especially those RAC boats.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

good post

[ScrapIron Prime]

Triple UAC/5 Jaeger DD would fall into this category. There's never been much hate for it.

[Captain Polux]

[FupDup]

Not all "facetime" weapons are created equally.

MGs for example justify it by being very lightweight for the most part and having very good damage against internal structure. Ultra ACs deal devastating damage that can rip people apart in seconds when used in groups. ERLL boats have incredible range, instant-hit, and decent burst damage.

The new Rotary Autocannons on the other hand...are kind of derpy. I enjoy facing them because they openly invite me to boop them on the nose with my full alpha while I only take like 1-2% armor damage.

Edited by FupDup, 25 July 2017 - 02:46 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

ScrapIron Prime, on 25 July 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Triple UAC/5 Jaeger DD would fall into this category. There's never been much hate for it.

Nope, all FaceTime builds are trash and ineffective, like UAC/5 Jagers, pentAC/5 Maulers, ERLL Battlemasters, all RAC builds, and anything that requires you to fire 2 volleys before retreating. Hell, firing 2 volleys of ANYTHING requires more facetime than a HLL (except AC/2, which is already anytime weapon) therefore everything that has to be fired twice is trash.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 25 July 2017 - 02:43 PM.

[stealthraccoon]

My Urbanmechs stare down Madcats all day.

[Khobai]

Quote

My Urbanmechs stare down Madcats all day.

and get blowed up im sure lol

[stealthraccoon]

Khobai, on 25 July 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

and get blowed up im sure lol

More often than not, but when I win, it's totally worth it!

[Alexander of Macedon]

Nice overexaggeration.

The point is that they're less efficient. That does not necessarily mean that they're bad (unless their performance is as abysmal as something like the RAC/2), just that if two skilled players go head to head, one with a poke build and the other with a DPS build, the DPS build is generally going to lose.

If you fire once every three seconds, you spend ~2.75 seconds shielding or torso twisting. If you fire once every second, you spend functionally no time shielding or torso twisting. If both players are good, armor+structure+hitbox OPness is relatively equal, and the net damage output isn't too skewed towards the DPS build, the dude who gets to twist for most of the engagement is going to spread damage more, be opened up later, and kill his opponent first.

That said, that's a paper scenario. In real matches one or both of those players will be mediocre at best, both will be surrounded by other 'mechs, &c., leaving much more room for environmental errors to creep in. Doesn't mean it's not true, just that it can be negated by a bunch of stuff you can't really model effectively/by subpar play. Same reason that it's simultaneously true that clan PPFLD poptarting was and is the most efficient build setup, and that it's not particularly dangerous in QP because a lot of people don't run it (for manifold reasons), many of those who do are not good at it, and match flow outside of the individual's control can **** the playstyle over (say, by forcing a brawl in the first 3 minutes of the match).

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 25 July 2017 - 04:22 PM.

[TheMisled]

FupDup, on 25 July 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

The new Rotary Autocannons on the other hand...are kind of derpy. I enjoy facing them because they openly invite me to boop them on the nose with my full alpha while I only take like 1-2% armor damage.

The **** kind of potato aim do the guys you come up against have. From a few seconds of shooting from a single RAC/5 every mech will have taken at least 5% damage. If you want statistics, 3 seconds from 1 RAC/5 = 30ish damage (actually more). On a heavy, it can have up to 614 armour. 30/614*100 = ~5%. That is from 1 RAC/5 for a mere 3 seconds. More often than not, an engagement with an RAC/5 against anything heavy enough such that it can deal enough alpha damage to make much of a difference.

Even having thrown those stats out there, you have to remember that alpha damage and sustained damage are for very different circumstances with alpha being better for playing peek-a-boo with the enemy mech and sustained damage being a lot better in brawls (something which I more actively engage in).

Edited by TheMisled, 25 July 2017 - 03:24 PM.

[FupDup]

TheMisled, on 25 July 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

The **** kind of potato aim do the guys you come up against have. From a few seconds of shooting from a single RAC/5 every mech will have taken at least 5% damage. If you want statistics, 3 seconds from 1 RAC/5 = 30ish damage (actually more). On a heavy, it can have up to 614 armour. 30/614*100 = ~5%. That is from 1 RAC/5 for a mere 3 seconds. More often than not, an engagement with an RAC/5 against anything heavy enough such that it can deal enough alpha damage to make much of a difference.

Even having thrown those stats out there, you have to remember that alpha damage and sustained damage are for very different circumstances with alpha being better for playing peek-a-boo with the enemy mech and sustained damage being a lot better in brawls (something which I more actively engage in).

RACs have built-in spread like SRMs and LBX, just to a lower extent. Aim can't overcome that, only getting closer to the target can. Problem is that many RAC users try to trade salvos with alpha-strike builds at 500+ meters with the weapon, which really doesn't favor the RACs at all. Slow velocity on the RAC/5 doesn't help matters.

Edited by FupDup, 25 July 2017 - 03:28 PM.

[CancersCincar]

Prosperity Park, on 25 July 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

Nope, all FaceTime builds are trash and ineffective, like UAC/5 Jagers, pentAC/5 Maulers, ERLL Battlemasters, all RAC builds, and anything that requires you to fire 2 volleys before retreating. Hell, firing 2 volleys of ANYTHING requires more facetime than a HLL (except AC/2, which is already anytime weapon) therefore everything that has to be fired twice is trash.

So all rocket launcher builds are OP?

[Angel of Annihilation]

Alexander of Macedon, on 25 July 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

Nice overexaggeration.

The point is that they're less efficient. That does not necessarily mean that they're bad (unless their performance is as abysmal as something like the RAC/2), just that if two skilled players go head to head, one with a poke build and the other with a DPS build, the DPS build is generally going to lose.

If you fire once every three seconds, you spend ~2.75 seconds shielding or torso twisting. If you fire once every second, you spend functionally no time shielding or torso twisting. If both players are good, armor+structure+hitbox OPness is realtively equal, and the net damage output isn't too skewed towards the DPS build, the dude who gets to twist for most of the engagement is going to spread damage more, be opened up later, and kill his opponent first.

That said, that's a paper scenario. In real matches one or both of those players will be mediocre at best, both will be surrounded by other 'mechs, &c., leaving much more room for environmental errors to creep in. Doesn't mean it's not true, just that it can be negated by a bunch of stuff you can't really model effectively/by subpar play. Same reason that it's simultaneously true that clan PPFLD poptarting was and is the most efficient build setup, and that it's not particularly dangerous in QP because a lot of people don't run it (for manifold reasons), many of those who do are not good at it, and match flow outside of the individual's control can **** the playstyle over (say, by forcing a brawl in the first 3 minutes of the match).

This is very well said. It isn't that face time weapons can't be used it is more along the lines of that they have some very serious drawbacks that you have to figure out ways to compensate for. For example, a RAC/5 can be devastating when your enemy is caught out in the open and is focused on something other than you but your going to generally have to rely on those situations just occuring and then taking advantage of them rather than being able to create those situations yourself. Also in a duel your at a serious disadvantage because the peak and poke, PPFLD build is going to be the one dictating your engagement due to be able to twist and tuck to avoid damage and or using peak and poke tactics that favor hit quick hit and hide play style.

Now this is not to say that face time weapons or builds can't be used competitively. For example, a RAC is a great suppression weapon. If your role on your team is the keep the enemy suppressed so that your team can more more freely, then a RAC build could be extremely competitive. However, 1 vs 1, it is likely going to lose out to alpha strike build of any type and they are virtually ineffective against fast moving lights or mediums.

[evilauthor]

CancersCincar, on 25 July 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

So all rocket launcher builds are OP?

Only while their "ammo" lasts.

[LordNothing]

facetime + range isnt terrible. its those short range facetime weapons that kill you. this is why i hate the rac5 and prefer the numerically inferior rac2. this is why those cac2s are on my ultraviolet. 16 damage out to 1000 meters with crit chance and can fire every 0.72 seconds for a very long time. i dont think ive got as many ranged kills with any other weapon. i dont even have to hide in the rear, the enemy is usually dead before i get to brawl range.

Edited by LordNothing, 25 July 2017 - 03:47 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

LordNothing, on 25 July 2017 - 03:46 PM, said:

facetime + range isnt terrible. its those short range facetime weapons that kill you. this is why i hate the rac5 and prefer the numerically inferior rac2. this is why those cac2s are on my ultraviolet. 16 damage out to 1000 meters with crit chance and can fire every 0.72 seconds for a very long time. i dont think ive got as many ranged kills with any other weapon. i dont even have to hide in the rear, the enemy is usually dead before i get to brawl range.

True. I found that Facetime is actually a lot less dangerous with range, why C-ERLL works with sniping despite its abhorrently long duration -- at least was.

The problem with RAC is that the low velocity, and admittedly spread, shortens it's actual effective range when it could at least be useful out to 540m.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 25 July 2017 - 03:51 PM.

[Kiiyor]

ScrapIron Prime, on 25 July 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Triple UAC/5 Jaeger DD would fall into this category. There's never been much hate for it.

Yep, this.

Depends on your playstyle, how the enemy is playing, and your mech and loadout.

Facetime is more of an issue on front line mechs - those who need or want to be closest to the enemy to dish out their fisticuffs. Firing fast, twisting and getting back to cover is imperative for winning trades, especially if there's more than one mech waiting to perforate your pixels. This is where mech design plays a large part - high hardpoints and decent hitboxes are very important.

If you play on second line though, behind your front line of mechs, with longer range weapons that either require facetime or aiming finesse, you're less likely to be targeted, and facetime isn't as much of an issue. Your mech can also be shaped more like a barn, and you can somewhat get away with it. It's how mechs like the Awesome, Warhawk and Jager manage to exist.

A decent Dakka Yager pilot knows their mech can't survive being the center of attention, so they take steps to avoid that. They have the range and mech profile to make apply lots of fire while avoiding the attention that a mech like the Scorch would get.

If you play a mech like this, with DPS weapons or long burn times, you need to understand that you lose some versatility, as your weapons and playstyle dictate your peak performance is more situational. Your chances of doing well depend on a game creating situations that are favourable to you.

If you're getting annihilated in trades, you're either playing wrong, or using the wrong mech and loadout, or your team isn't doing you any favours - or, as is often the case, the enemy team is in a better position than you and yours.

[TheMisled]

FupDup, on 25 July 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

RACs have built-in spread like SRMs and LBX, just to a lower extent. Aim can't overcome that, only getting closer to the target can. Problem is that many RAC users try to trade salvos with alpha-strike builds at 500+ meters with the weapon, which really doesn't favor the RACs at all. Slow velocity on the RAC/5 doesn't help matters.

I must admit that I have never had any problems with spread and in fact, had you have not told me, I would have believed there to be no spread. All of my shots land where I want them to land even at 500 meters range. As for travel time, it only really becomes a problem when the enemy is moving sporadically and varying speeds a lot (something which heavier mechs are not too good at) but even then is isn't hard to lead a target, it just take practise.