92 replies to this topic

[Fleeb the Mad]

Unsymmetrical gameplay tends to reinforce the notion that the side with the disadvantage in numbers is made up of better players. Stuff like this:

Khobai, on 29 July 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

I think 2 stars vs 3 lances would be more balanced than 12v12 is. I think its okay to slightly favor IS for balance because it forces the clans to overachieve to win. in 12v10 the IS side have a numbers advantage which forces the clan players to play better, and that makes sense from a lore perspective.

The reality is that it's a fallacy. It's often easier to fight superior numbers if you have better equipment becauseusing superior numbers is hard in maps where choke points and terrain features restrict the number of mechs that can fire at a given target. This topic doesn't keep coming up for lore reasons, because Clanners in MWO don't exactly refuse to use airstrikes, artillery or focus fire until the enemy breaks the rules. It keeps coming up because some people want a game mode in which they can feel superior.

Traditional Clan v IS with uneven numbers offers reduced rewards for IS players and asks them to take hits to their epeens because their damage and kill ratios have to be worse by comparison. It sure looks good for the Clan side, though.

I fully admit in this instance, if it was a lance v star with the current balance state, any IS player that could consistently win half their battles really would be a far better player. Though I expect it would be a Hard Mode that few people would find appealing. Outnumbered by superior machines?

It would be a special kind of madness.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 29 July 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

I think its okay to slightly favor IS for balance because it forces the clans to overachieve to win.

Precisely.

That is why I think the 10 vs. 12 tests done -- in which the Clans were consistently wiped -- were both very instructive and very promising.

And obviously the "selfish" argument is nothing but a load of cow pies.

Andi Nagasia, on 29 July 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

[Redacted]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 29 July 2017 - 04:35 PM.
Quote Clean-Up, reference

[C4NC3R]

I you mean replace lance with star... means before 12, and replaced by 15. Yes I argee. It's saves waiting time in the queue.

[MischiefSC]

OP Clan tech was a failure in TT as well. It was a failure in tournaments, it was a failure in effective matchmaking (any Clan LPL boat would demolish whatever it played against, or IS would just field their total BV in vehicles and weenie rush) and it was a failure as a game design.

BT abandoned that whole concept and the 'currently' live BT universe has effective 1 to 1 balancing IS and Clan.

Release of the Clans in the form they were in was a bad game design choice that the developers walked back by nuking the whole game universe (WoB) and starting over with 1 to 1 balance (Dark Ages). Because a game designed around one side being OP munchkins who 'balanced' by plot armor but no game mechanics proved to be an incredibly stupid and poor game design.

Beside which balancing the game to 10 v 12 or 5 v 8 isn't somehow easier than balancing the game 12 v 12. It's a failed idea on its face with no functional or sustainable way to do it in a PvP FPS computer game. It wasn't really even viable in a tabletop RTS.

Fortunately PGI has already said this particular stupid mistake is one they'll never make, so no big worry.

[Mechwarrior4670152]

Mystere, on 29 July 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

That is why I think the 10 vs. 12 tests done -- in which the Clans were consistently wiped -- were both very instructive and very promising.

And obviously the "selfish" argument is nothing but a load of cow pies.

You are completely right. A test done with people openly and actively willing to work together means EVERYTHING when it comes to the average skirmishtard found in puglandia.

Calling the average PuGlander selfish MUST be a load of cow pies!
After all, Mother Teresa was well known as a wonderful person - so EVERYONE must be a wonderful person!
Ghandi is well known as a pacifist, and that worked well for him, so obviously the solution to EVERY war is peaceful resistance!
/Sarcasm off

There are good reasons PGI has so often stated that they will not do what this thread is asking for.

Edited by Wence the Wanderer, 29 July 2017 - 09:35 PM.

[Mystere]

Wence the Wanderer, on 29 July 2017 - 09:35 PM, said:

You are completely right. A test done with people openly and actively willing to work together means EVERYTHING when it comes to the average skirmishtard found in puglandia.

Calling the average PuGlander selfish MUST be a load of cow pies!
After all, Mother Teresa was well known as a wonderful person - so EVERYONE must be a wonderful person!
Ghandi is well known as a pacifist, and that worked well for him, so obviously the solution to EVERY war is peaceful resistance!
/Sarcasm off

There are good reasons PGI has so often stated that they will not do what this thread is asking for.

Methinks you missed the point.

[Alreech]

MischiefSC, on 29 July 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

OP Clan tech was a failure in TT as well. It was a failure in tournaments, it was a failure in effective matchmaking (any Clan LPL boat would demolish whatever it played against, or IS would just field their total BV in vehicles and weenie rush) and it was a failure as a game design.

BT abandoned that whole concept and the 'currently' live BT universe has effective 1 to 1 balancing IS and Clan.

Release of the Clans in the form they were in was a bad game design choice that the developers walked back by nuking the whole game universe (WoB) and starting over with 1 to 1 balance (Dark Ages). Because a game designed around one side being OP munchkins who 'balanced' by plot armor but no game mechanics proved to be an incredibly stupid and poor game design.

The balance problems you mentioned have been real in the Battletech tabletop wargame, but the reason for Darkage was the milking the success of FASAs Mageknight / Heroclix games with the Mechwarrior brand, not the idea to make Battletech easier to balance.

Mageknight / Heroclix haven been great games with simple rules, and FASA decided what they can make more money by dumbing down battletech on that level and sell random Mechs in Boosterpacks.
Problem was: most Battletechfans doesn't want to play a system with simples rules (no limb destruction, no different ranges, no construction rules,...) or to buy random Mechs in Booster packs...

[MischiefSC]

Alreech, on 30 July 2017 - 06:36 AM, said:

The balance problems you mentioned have been real in the Battletech tabletop wargame, but the reason for Darkage was the milking the success of FASAs Mageknight / Heroclix games with the Mechwarrior brand, not the idea to make Battletech easier to balance.

Mageknight / Heroclix haven been great games with simple rules, and FASA decided what they can make more money by dumbing down battletech on that level and sell random Mechs in Boosterpacks.
Problem was: most Battletechfans doesn't want to play a system with simples rules (no limb destruction, no different ranges, no construction rules,...) or to buy random Mechs in Booster packs...

They were going 1 to1 well before Dark Age. Official Mixtech mechs as an example. That the Clan balance was a failure was something FASA talked about long before. The move to 1 to 1 via mixed tech happened pretty early on, just via captured Clan mechs and Clans flipping sides.

Because the whole balance idea is and was a failure and, forrunately, one we don't need to expect to repeat here.

[Alreech]

I would like to see a Clan 10 vs 12 IS mode... or even a Clan vs IS mode in quickplay.
At the moment Factions in MWO don't have much effect in quickplay.
Imagine a Star Wars or Warhammer 40 K game with players from all factions fight in mixed teams... Rebells and Imperials fighting side by side agains an other team mixed of Rebells and Imperials... sounds stupid, but in MWO it's the typical quickmode gameplay.

To make Clan vs IS work in quickplay IMHO many changes are needed

• Each player has to choose 2 factions: a Clan and a IS faction
  
• If he chooses a Clan Mech to fight, he will put on the clan side by the matchmaker, if he chooses a IS Mech on the IS side
  
• Groups must decide after creation if they want to play with Clan or IS tech
  
• Rewards must consider the faction of the player more. The factions Decal should be the first reward in Faction play, no rewards that are not faction specific (Gazell Dropship ???)
  
• C-Bill and XP earnings must be modified by the enemys Tier and equipment. A victory agains a team with more tonnage, more clantech an better players must be better rewarded than a balanced game
  
• C-Bill prices for Mechs and decal selection must be faction specific

Edited by Alreech, 30 July 2017 - 06:53 AM.

[m]

Burning2nd, on 29 July 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

way to much board game talk here... you need to go back to dos

HAHAHAHAHA this makes my day

Alreech, on 30 July 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

I would like to see a Clan 10 vs 12 IS mode... or even a Clan vs IS mode in quickplay.
At the moment Factions in MWO don't have much effect in quickplay.
Imagine a Star Wars or Warhammer 40 K game with players from all factions fight in mixed teams... Rebells and Imperials fighting side by side agains an other team mixed of Rebells and Imperials... sounds stupid, but in MWO it's the typical quickmode gameplay.

To make Clan vs IS work in quickplay IMHO many changes are needed

• Each player has to choose 2 factions: a Clan and a IS faction
  
• If he chooses a Clan Mech to fight, he will put on the clan side by the matchmaker, if he chooses a IS Mech on the IS side
  
• Groups must decide after creation if they want to play with Clan or IS tech
  
• Rewards must consider the faction of the player more. The factions Decal should be the first reward in Faction play, no rewards that are not faction specific (Gazell Dropship ???)
  
• C-Bill and XP earnings must be modified by the enemys Tier and equipment. A victory agains a team with more tonnage, more clantech an better players must be better rewarded than a balanced game
  
• C-Bill prices for Mechs and decal selection must be faction specific

So Alreech, what do you have planned for post 700? Cheers for you to do something special.

Edited by m, 30 July 2017 - 11:53 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Alreech, on 30 July 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

Imagine a Star Wars or Warhammer 40 K game with players from all factions fight in mixed teams... Rebells and Imperials fighting side by side agains an other team mixed of Rebells and Imperials... sounds stupid, but in MWO it's the typical quickmode gameplay.

The thing is, I don't know of any canonical instances where Imperials and Rebels fought together, but there are several canonical instances of Clans and IS fighting together; there are even mixed factions (i.e. Ghost Bear Dominion).

So it's weird, but then it's not really that weird.

[davoodoo]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 July 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

The thing is, I don't know of any canonical instances where Imperials and Rebels fought together, but there are several canonical instances of Clans and IS fighting together; there are even mixed factions (i.e. Ghost Bear Dominion).

So it's weird, but then it's not really that weird.

I see you tactically avoided w40k here.
Unlike battletech and w40k however star wars was never designed to be internally consistent or even marginally believeable.

On the other hand w40k had at least 100's instances of imperium fighting along xenos, they regularly manipulate orkz and i even know of 1 instance of loyalist fighting along chaos space marines.
Still that **** requires even greater enemy to be present so you can forget about in normal battle...

Also fun trivia, stormtrooper e11 blasters have more firepower than anything short of ac20 or warhound titan assuming ferrocrete is as durable as normal concrete(and if it isnt why the **** do they use it in bunkers). Hope you see now what i mean by lack of consistency...

Edited by davoodoo, 30 July 2017 - 12:23 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

davoodoo, on 30 July 2017 - 12:18 PM, said:

I see you tactically avoided w40k here.

Honestly glossed right over it.

But as you pointed out, there are many examples of the Imperium working with their enemies, so his example falls flat.

[Honeybadgers]

Anyone arguing "five better mechs against 4 garbage ones" is stupid. IS mechs are just as good as clan mechs right now, better in some cases. You have all of our tech, some better tech, in mechs with heavy quirks and much better hitboxes. Stop whining, the game has completely changed in your favor with the LFE and your massive new variety of guns.

The real problem is the whole "5v4" thing. It works from the lore, but it would never work in reality.

[davoodoo]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 July 2017 - 12:27 PM, said:

Honestly glossed right over it.

But as you pointed out, there are many examples of the Imperium working with their enemies, so his example falls flat.

Thing is they dont work with enemies they actively fight... and even when they work together its xenos joining active fight as imperium still got policy of shoot first and ask questions later...

Now in battletech i could see splinter clan mercenary groups fighting with is, like wolf dragoons, but during clan invasion if you had someone declare himself to be clanner, he would be shot on the spot...

Were not fighting blakists yet so no reason to unite against them...

Also remember that every actual war in battletech is territorial conquest so its pretty ******** to ally with someone who will contest your claim...

in context of mwo however, i could that few mercs scavenged clan mechs, doesnt explain full clan fitting as these would usually have mixtech, but i can buy that.

Edited by davoodoo, 30 July 2017 - 01:06 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

davoodoo, on 30 July 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

Thing is they dont work with enemies they actively fight... and even when they work together its xenos joining active fight as imperium still got policy of shoot first and ask questions later...

Well, that's just not true because the Imperium actively fights everybody. It's in their mandate; it is humanity's turn to rule the galaxy, according to the Emperor, because all previous races had failed.

It's just that if there's an even bigger threat, they will prioritize and, if necessary, make a momentary truce to deal with it.

Quote

Now in battletech i could see splinter clan mercenary groups fighting with is, like wolf dragoons, but during clan invasion if you had someone declare himself to be clanner, he would be shot on the spot...

Were not fighting blakists yet so no reason to unite against them...

We're almost there. We're in the 3057-3068 range now, the Jihad started in 3067, it's just mincing words at this point.

[davoodoo]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 July 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

Well, that's just not true because the Imperium actively fights everybody. It's in their mandate; it is humanity's turn to rule the galaxy, according to the Emperor, because all previous races had failed.

It's just that if there's an even bigger threat, they will prioritize and, if necessary, make a momentary truce to deal with it.



We're almost there. We're in the 3057-3068 range now, the Jihad started in 3067, it's just mincing words at this point.

Actually no.

Imperium given up on attacking tau and eldar as theyre not a threat.
Impreium also relegated fighting orkz to local goverments unless waagh appears and they also pretty much ignore nids unless they try to feast on imperial world.
No one looks for necrons.
Only thing they actively fight atm is chaos.

also
"The opening salvo was launched in October 3067 against Wolf's Dragoons on their homeworld of Outreach."
great houses doesnt care yet. ONE started to care in 3068 with operation steel hammer.

Edited by davoodoo, 30 July 2017 - 01:25 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

davoodoo, on 30 July 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

Actually no.

Imperium given up on attacking tau and eldar as theyre not threat.

No, they didn't give up on them. Bigger threats came out. They were fighting campaigns against them as late as 998.M41, right before the setting of 8th Edition, which they lost.

Quote

Impreium also relegated fighting orkz to local goverments unless waagh appears and they also pretty much ignore nids unless they try to feast on imperial world.
Only thing they actively fight atm is chaos.

Chaos is just the current focus, as of 8th edition. The lore makes it abundantly clear that the Imperium fights anything and everything at all times, but there's only so much they can cover in the published works.

Quote

also
"The opening salvo was launched in October 3067 against Wolf's Dragoons on their homeworld of Outreach."
grand houses doesnt care...

And? They cared by 3068, when Blakists invaded the Lyran Alliance. Still in-scope.

[davoodoo]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 July 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

No, they didn't give up on them. Bigger threats came out. They were fighting campaigns against them as late as 998.M41, right before the setting of 8th Edition, which they lost.



Chaos is just the current focus, as of 8th edition. The lore makes it abundantly clear that the Imperium fights anything and everything at all times, but there's only so much they can cover in the published works.



And? They cared by 3068, when Blakists invaded the Lyran Alliance. Still in-scope.

No, lore dictates that imperium is attacked by everything at all times...

Skirmishes and local campaigns are of no threat to imperium...
Eldar could be wiped out milenia ago by imperium but imperium just simply isnt willing to dedicate resources to that.

Only thing they actively fight is actually chaos as they not only sent expedition to take some worlds in eye of terror(gonna be highly effective but whatever) but also actively work to retake world tainted by chaos unlike tau which they ignored and let farsight have his enclave...

actual threats to imperium consist of beast of ullanor, beast of armaggedon, chaos marines in eye of terror and chaos influence within imperium.

After civil war ended in 3067... we currently are in civil war era, just before jihad started.

Edited by davoodoo, 30 July 2017 - 01:55 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

davoodoo, on 30 July 2017 - 01:47 PM, said:

No, lore dictates that imperium is attacked by everything at all times...

Being attacked typically involves fighting.

And no, the lore also dictates that the Imperium goes on the offensive against anything intelligent that isn't human unless they have something else they need to deal with.

Quote

Skirmishes and local campaigns are of no threat to imperium...
Eldar could be wiped out milenia ago by imperium but imperium just simply isnt willing to dedicate resources to that.

Only thing they actively fight is actually chaos as they not only sent expedition to take some worlds in eye of terror(gonna be highly effective but whatever) but also actively work to retake world tainted by chaos unlike tau which they ignored and let farsight have his enclave...

The entire reason the Horus Heresy happened was because the Emperor left the Great Crusade to his warmaster, Horus, which created resentment for him not being at the front with his men and allowed negative feelings to fester and give Chaos an increased foothold in the Astartes' minds. Why did he do this? Because he was attempting to breach the Eldar Webway. It is that same breach that he must now constantly defend against the forces of Chaos in the Immaterium.

So, no. The Imperium was busy re-establishing a unified territory in the 30,000s, got sacked by Chaos in the aftermath, and have been dealing with that ever since. When they can, they do fight the Eldar. When they can't, they don't. Just because the Eldar are lower on the list of priorities does not mean they do not fight them. End of story.

Imperium didn't ignore Tau. They got their arses kicked by the Tau. The Farsight Enclaves are, themselves, the direct result of Imperial invasion.

Quote

After civil war ended in 3067... we currently are in civil war era, just before jihad started.

Same year the Jihad started.