69 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Stars versus Lances and 10 versus 12 are selfish ideas from selfish people.

"I think one team should have better Mechs that are faster, stronger, and more powerful, and the other team should have slower, weaker Mechs with inferior weapons. That way the first team has more opportunities for more kills, they get to shoot at more targets, and they get to have more fun. The second team gets to slog around with their inferior equipment and they have fewer opportunities to score kills.

That's totally fair and balanced!"

That's what you sound like.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 29 July 2017 - 07:43 AM.

[oldradagast]

Basically, yes. They want somebody else to play the red-shirts and cannon fodder for them to kill to pad their K/D ratio and embiggen their epeen. That's all it - total immaturity wrapped in a thin coating of "Lore."

It's no different than the demand to keep PUG's and casuals able to play FP alone; it gives out free kills to the elite, and that's all that matters.

[Mystere]

Someone got triggered!

Edit:

And another one!

Edited by Mystere, 29 July 2017 - 07:47 AM.

[oldradagast]

Mystere, on 29 July 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

Someone got triggered!

Edit:

And another one!

Hey, people post stupid stuff like that, they deserve to be called out on it. Whatever, man.

[SuomiWarder]

As one of the people that would be in the slow, weak mechs...some of us are just stuck with out love of the old lore of the fictional world and don't mind taking on a challenge as the underdog.

[oldradagast]

Hey, I play Awesomes - I get the whole challenge part of things. But even I wouldn't take an Awesome into a 4 IS vs. 5 Clan battle. There's "Challenge" and then "suicidal game mode," and the last thing this game needs with its small population needs is yet another unbalanced game mode that favors people "in the know" where casuals and new players get smashed to "teach them a lesson" about playing MWO.

Stock battles could be cool, but even then, you'd need some sort of BV implementation, and a way to limit it by era or mechs with double heats sinks would be the only playable ones. If the game had a huge population, this could work, but it sadly doesn't.

[El Bandito]

Mystere, on 29 July 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

Someone got triggered!

Edit:

And another one!

I think you were triggered the most.

[Valhallan]

Well of course those are selfish ideas, the real balanced number is 5v12 (IS got advantage here, just have to match regular skills, clans have to be clan skills, 1 clan potato = GG)

[davoodoo]

Im the someone who would play those slower, weaker mechs with inferior weapons.
Seriously, assuming that just because you ask for clans to have better mechs means you must be clan player is just ********.

I seriously believe that it would skew balance towards is, you cant even imagine how much those 2 extra mech and 20% extra tonnage would change things.

Edited by davoodoo, 29 July 2017 - 08:19 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I disagree entirely with pitting 10 vs 12, but I can see from the people who advocate for it that its for lore reasons rather than epeen, selfish in the sense that they'd pick that piece of lore over balance, but not for much more.

I really doubt Mystere really cares what people's opinion of him is here.

[El Bandito]

davoodoo, on 29 July 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

Im the someone who would play those slower, weaker mechs with inferior weapons.
Seriously, assuming that just because you ask for clans to have better mechs means you must be clan player is just ********.

I seriously believe that it would skew balance towards is, you cant even imagine how much those 2 extra mech and 20% extra tonnage would change things.

Nope. All this will do is to skew player population to 4:1 Clan favor. Most tryhards will go Clan to pad their stats, and the rest will certainly not gonna wish to be their punching bag, thus heading to Clans as well. Which leaves only neckbeards, and masochists to stay as IS.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 July 2017 - 08:30 AM.

[davoodoo]

El Bandito, on 29 July 2017 - 08:26 AM, said:

Nope. All this will do is to skew player population to 4:1 Clan favor. Most tryhards will go Clan to pad their stats, and the rest will certainly not gonna wish to be their punching bag, thus heading to Clans as well. Which leaves only neckbeards, and masochists to stay as IS.

Padding stats is only gonna happen if clans actually gonna win this...

Which im really not convinced is gonna happen as even 1 moron dying needlessly is gonna hurt

Edited by davoodoo, 29 July 2017 - 08:39 AM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

I think 10v12 should be an option... for private matches. More options for private games are always welcome.

Forcing the entire QP queue to play that way is a sure-fire recipe for disaster.

Generally speaking, the easiest class to play is heavy- they have good armor, great firepower, and decent mobility all in one package. Consequently, the heavy drop queue isnormally much larger than the queues for the other weight classes, except where there is a new release in another class or PGI posts class-specific event rewards. It's not hard to understand why this happens: most people want to give themselves the greatest possible chance of achieving the highest possible personal score.

The same thing would happen if PGI made QP asymmetrical. Even if the overall win/loss rate doesn't change (although I rather doubt it would be that easy to balance), the Clan team will always have more kills to spread around- that's more opportunities for greater personal gain. Most of the time, half or more of a team in a 12v12 match doesn't get a single killshot; if you reduce the number of enemies per player, and increase the number of friendlies it takes to kill each enemy, then you decrease the probability that anyone but the best of the best will get any kills at all.

10v12 balance works in a strategy game where one player controls the entire team- regardless of how many IS 'Mechs it takes to kill a Clan 'Mech, the player still wins in the end if they play well. All the kills belong to that player, and their end-of-match score reflects the effort put into the win. In an action shooter, where one player controls one 'Mech, it is unreasonable to implement that kind of asymmetrical balance, because you are asking a certain percentage of one team to accept a bad personal outcome for the benefit of their teammates... while the other team makes no such sacrifice.

The entirely predictable consequence is that the Clan queue would explode while the IS queue would be deserted save for the handful of lore-hounds who don't mind the challenge or don't care that their KDR and damage-per-round will tank. Or, if you allow IS v IS and Clan v Clan, then all of the buckets dry out as each player turtles up in the mode they feel gives them the best chance of not being stomped.

It's a bad idea and always has been.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 29 July 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

I think 10v12 should be an option... for private matches. More options for private games are always welcome.

It already is. PGI made the premium options available to all without premium time active, you can just set full teams to no and setup some lore based builds between the sides, 12 IS mechs, maybe using lower tech options such as single heat sinks, vs 10 Clan mechs.

[davoodoo]

I think you got it backwards.

Ppl dont gravitate towards heavies by default, ppl play mechs they feel best in and like you said yourself, heavies pack firepower decent armor and speed so they are fits for most ppl.

Edited by davoodoo, 29 July 2017 - 08:57 AM.

[RAM]

4 Lances (Reinforced Company) vs 3 Stars (Trinary) = 16v15

That would be a good fight; unfortunately, the goofy QP queue is mixed so it would be unnecessary there, although it would work well in FP.


RAM
ELH

[Dao Feng]

Just some poor btech lore-mad fan boy wanking off in his own fantasy land and wanting to share his orgasm with everyone.

Chill

[Xetelian]

Lore hounds that demand clan mechs over perform are a plague around here.

They don't understand that a PVP game needs balance and adding 2 more mechs doesn't balance out the disparity.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

IS currently have 10% more tonnage than Clan. And obviously the speed and general betterness is on Clan side.

Assuming 10 vs 12 with 4 mech dropdecs balanced by the numbers not tonnage:

I don't get the argument, that for IS player having a chance to kill 40 mechs is not enough? In one game? Want to kill 1000 mechs, play 25 games and kill all enemies. Good luck trying though.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 29 July 2017 - 10:35 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

Which leaves only neckbeards, and masochists to stay as IS.

Slowly closes the closet door, hoping no one had a view of the whips, chains and other knickknacks hanging up.