24 replies to this topic

[GuardDogg]

Of all the years been trying. Not one pilot is allowed to defend anything. That goes with a base, capping and defending. Because if you do, some players will freak out, and next thing your reported. I like to be relaxed and enjoy a game, but others get upset. Needs to be changed.

[Methanoid]

because the scoring system and rewards are skewed in such a way that "kill everything first" THEN mop up whatever pointless objective remains is how everything ends up, even if you do defend and did the job well, you will score cr*p all for it, until that changes its better to treat everything as skirmish then do whatever is needed afterwards.

It sometimes works well if your in a light and your teams anhialated to jaunt off and capture a base or capture points in conquest thus making objective play workable etc, but usually kill em all works best and rewards best so thats what happens by default.

Also because the games so vague when it comes to gametypes, all new players get is some terrible info regarding objectives as text when loading/waiting for ready that doesnt really help them much, esp gametypes like escort or incursion, the game would be objectivly better for the briefly clueless if when dropping into a game there was a PIP voiceover/face quickly and clearly explaining what that pilot has to do next, thus not becoming a liability to a team that does know wth their doing.

[LordNothing]

if people could control the map like they are supposed to then the team would know when there is a massive force headed back to the base and could intercept. but yea if somone is in a death brawl with another mech they will be unable to rtb with that hostile on their tail. no matter where you are if you are moving around and sharing intel and the enemy is staying low, you are pretty much in control of the map.

conquest is a good example of the right way to design a mode with respect to limited respawn. the objectives are usually met by your third drop and i seldom have to break out my 4th mech unless i potato early in the match. the objective should be attainable with the first 2 drops. then suddenly staying alive is no longer a priority and you can focus on objectives. the pace of play will also be improved and the game would be more exiting.

though it doesn't help that every match uses the same scoring rules. different objectives should have different scoring rules. like on objective modes kills and damage would do ziltch for your score. at least weight the payouts from score triggers so that each game mode has its own set of multipliers.

Edited by LordNothing, 30 July 2017 - 07:32 PM.

[DAYLEET]

The best defence is a good offence. If you lose the initiative and let the enemy the choice of how to attack you and kill you then you will likely lose. Some mech are fast enough to to act as a defender if needed, mostly it isnt needed. Its best to have two noobs hitting your base with one of your light being distracting while the rest of you team destroy the enemy team.

In Clan vs IS that can be another story. Game modes and maps can amplify advantages a faction has. Its a situation where hiding and defending a particular place on a map and run the timer is a good idea(if you want to win) but only if the other side must attack you. If nothing forces them to attack then just run the timer, game mode and maps need to be fixed, not you.

Edited by DAYLEET, 30 July 2017 - 07:36 PM.

[MadRover]

The only reason why defending is a thing is when you capped an objective and are being pushed the moment you complete the cap. This game has the "mobility is life" baked in so if you're not moving and assisting the team, planning and executing your movements properly, and furthermore being blind to every possible situation throughout the match; then you are planning to lose or get killed.

Sometimes, and its rare, it is good to go after objectives rather than kill the other team. Like HPG conquest for example. I don't know why but people still think its ok to get Theta when its exactly the wrong thing to do.

[Ryllen Kriel]

GuardDogg, on 30 July 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

Of all the years been trying. Not one pilot is allowed to defend anything. That goes with a base, capping and defending. Because if you do, some players will freak out, and next thing your reported. I like to be relaxed and enjoy a game, but others get upset. Needs to be changed.

I can't defend this thread.

[DaMuchi]

Most players, like me, aren't really too concerned about winning, after all, the difference between a win and a loss is just 20k and a little bit of a score drop. We just want to go out there, get a daily dosage of mech combat but more importantly, get cash. If the payout for scouting is good, I'd scout. And if the payout for doing objectives was good, I'd do objectives, but alas, that's not the case. Don't blame the players, blame the game.

[Luminis]

The primary issue isn't defending, it's splitting from the group, imho.
If the opposing team doesn't split up, the deathball either runs into you and wipes you out ezpz or runs into your team which is now a 'Mech short.

Splitting up can work every now and then, but for your usual QP PUG, I'd argue that it's the wrong course of action most of the time.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Luminis, on 01 August 2017 - 01:56 AM, said:

The primary issue isn't defending, it's splitting from the group, imho.
If the opposing team doesn't split up, the deathball either runs into you and wipes you out ezpz or runs into your team which is now a 'Mech short.

Splitting up can work every now and then, but for your usual QP PUG, I'd argue that it's the wrong course of action most of the time.

This.

It's why Escort sucks so hard.

If you and another player decide to "defend" the VIP, then you're forcing the rest of your team to fight at a severe disadvantage of 10v12. If they lose that 10v12 decisively then it's unlikely that your two mechs will actually be able to effectively defend anyways... since you'd probably be fighting 2v6+.

The only situation I can think of where splitting up is conclusively a good idea is on Conquest, where an enemy light takes gives them an early cap lead. You kill the enemy team, minus the 1-2 lights but have to split up to both decap, and defend these individual points.

[Paigan]

GuardDogg, on 30 July 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

Of all the years been trying. Not one pilot is allowed to defend anything. That goes with a base, capping and defending. Because if you do, some players will freak out, and next thing your reported. I like to be relaxed and enjoy a game, but others get upset. Needs to be changed.

In almost every tactical game, diverting mobile, attack-capable units to do pure defense is a waste.
This counts double and triple for games where the opposing teams have equal force.
If noone comes, you're just a wasted Mech and your team has to play 11vs12.
If someone comes, they are VERY likely to come in force and you get stomped without causing any damage to speak of.
The existing, but very, very rare case that your guarding actually fends off someone with less damage on your side than on the enemy side is so astronomically unlikely that it can be ignored.

For a purely defensive unit to be viable, it must be incredibly cheap yet relatively powerful.
For example a stationary turret (pretty cheap to build compared to a moving armored unit) with a cr*pload of armor, range and ammo/heatsinks.
If for example a team could trade 1 mech and 100 ton drop weight for 3 100 ton PPC turrets, that might make sense.

But putting a mobile, offense-capable unit to do defense duty and in turn be missing in the actual fight is nothing but plain stupid.

THAT is why people freak out.
They freak out because you are wasting team resources (namely your Mech and no, you cannot do what you want. It's a team, not a private life. You can do what you want in the boundaries of properly contributing to the team effort).

That doesn't need to change.
You need to increase your understanding of tactical situations (no offense).

Edited by Paigan, 01 August 2017 - 04:58 AM.

[DaMuchi]

Paigan, on 01 August 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

In almost every tactical game, diverting mobile, attack-capable units to do pure defense is a waste.
This counts double and triple for games where the opposing teams have equal force.
If noone comes, you're just a wasted Mech and your team has to play 11vs12.
If someone comes, they are VERY likely to come in force and you get stomped without causing any damage to speak of.
The existing, but very, very rare case that your guarding actually fends off someone with less damage on your side than on the enemy side is so astronomically unlikely that it can be ignored.

For a purely defensive unit to be viable, it must be incredibly cheap yet relatively powerful.
For example a stationary turret (pretty cheap to build compared to a moving armored unit) with a cr*pload of armor, range and ammo/heatsinks.
If for example a team could trade 1 mech and 100 ton drop weight for 3 100 ton PPC turrets, that might make sense.

But putting a mobile, offense-capable unit to do defense duty and in turn be missing in the actual fight is nothing but plain stupid.

THAT is why people freak out.
They freak out because you are wasting team resources (namely your Mech and no, you cannot do what you want. It's a team, not a private life. You can do what you want in the boundaries of properly contributing to the team effort).

That doesn't need to change.
You need to increase your understanding of tactical situations (no offense).

Hey man... all GuardDogg ever wanted to do was be a guard dog. can't a dog dream?

[GuardDogg]

When not defending, a team can end up losing. And I always say. Oh well, the team called it, I didn't.

[Luminis]

GuardDogg, on 18 September 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

When not defending, a team can end up losing.

Yes, you can do the right thing and still lose. Shocker.

[Bombast]

Necroing your own thread without any new content? Lame.

Unrelated, Map Control>Static Defense. As it is in real life, it just so happens it is in game. Happy accident.

[GuardDogg]

The thing is with these game modes (conquest, Assault and incursion). You never know what the enemy is thinking, planning. And stupid players (yes stupid), team mater prefer fight first and then lose (or wait for outcome). I have encountered enemy team rushing, ending rounds, while the team I am in is half way on the map searching for enemy. Now, I have won rounds for the team defending, and they are still unaware of the success. Not even a light will return to base. On conquest, seen players leave a base, and then a second later, enemy is taking it away. The team player will not turn around, but has the narrow minded vision to continue forward, and lose. Defending is a tactical move in warfare, not just offense. If a team has the thought, offense, they better rush, instead of hiding in around hills, buildings being scared to fight.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Of all the years been trying. Not one pilot is allowed to defend anything. That goes with a base, capping and defending. Because if you do, some players will freak out, and next thing your reported. I like to be relaxed and enjoy a game, but others get upset. Needs to be changed.

That's because generally, "defending" a spot gets you gradually flanked, then stomped. Not that I mind faster units going back to help get a capper, but MWO is generally won by destroying most or all of the enemy first, then anything like a cap. "Defending" generally leads to the "defenders" contributing nothing to this stage of things (and basically not participating) if not done by the full group and giving the other side a free advantage and a two-step stomp. If the full group parks it, flank and stomp happens.

Plus, a cap race is the least rewarding, most boring match in MWO. It happens occasionally by accident, but it's guaranteed to leave people wondering why they wasted 10 minutes for a handful of Cblls and nearly zero exp.

[Asym]

Face it, MWO isn't about tactics or thinking: it's about killing stuff....... If you start to think, you are a "potato", a Noob, a coward and a whole bunch of other infelctives....

But, don't worry, Solaris will fix all this because it is designed for that leg hugging, pondering mass of incomprehensive towers of steel, whom are armed to the teeth, that wouldn't be able to fight at any distance beyond 100 meters because there'd be too many buttons to push beyond the one key they only know: alpha strike....

We've actually defended the base very successfully many times when we never ventured out; just to see what the other team did..... In one match, an assault on crimson, the other team never showed up at all............ Oh yes, we're playing with a whoie bunch of relatives of Lee, Patton, Guderian, Rommel, Longstreet, et al.... You know they are, they say so after every post they fear will change what it is they "do" and have practiced 5000 times......

Oh yes OP, they get a bit frustrated if you don't follow the MWO receipt............

[Bombast]

Asym, on 18 September 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

Oh yes, we're playing with a whoie bunch of relatives of Lee, Patton, Guderian, Rommel, Longstreet, et al....

Well, yes. Because those are Generals who absolutely believed that defense was pointless and you should be attacking, all the time. Lee and Patton in particular were fans of movement.

[MechaBattler]

The thing is that if you defend. Half the team will attack. And be destroyed by superior numbers. If you can get everyone to agree to defend that is of course a different story. It's not that defense is bad or that people shun it. It's that you can't get 12 randos to agree on it very often. I've seen it happen though. Someone with an even voice and the right words got lucky enough that everyone listened. Or at least they knew that if they split we would lose. And we won because the spot he choose gave us the advantage. But it's easier for pugs to attack as a moving blob.

[Xmith]

Defending a base is not normally called at the beginning of a match. Teams mostly like to see how the match progresses first. If it does come time to defend the base, the entire team (when possible) should fall back to defend.

The majority are not interested in winning for the most part. Going through the motions of gameplay is good enough for them. People are playing just to collect digital items that they will never own. I like collecting wins. Wins are something that is mine and can't be taken away from me, ever.