83 replies to this topic

[Hanky Spam]

Reaver2145, on 31 July 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

Yet more clam whining.

Better nerf IS so clams can have easy mode back.

I'm fine with the new IS tech.
Both sides have a few overperforming mechs now, especially IS with their quirks but as I said, I am fine with that...

[Lucian Nostra]

The Basilisk, on 31 July 2017 - 02:12 AM, said:

"No charge time gauss rifles with infinite ammo." WTF are you talking about dude ? HPPC ? OLOLOLOL Do you realize how much heat they do ? On most maps you just get closed in by faster mechs and outbrawled with SRMs and large ACs.

Has yet to be an issue, the damage output for the heat they generate is amazing for a PPC, and the 90m min range is so damn narrow that in about 10 games last night I had ONE instance where a hunchback crested the hill I was poking from in my K2 at around 75m. He was promptly dispatched by the rest of the team as I fell back and the ONLY reason he crested was because the VIP was about 20m behind him.

[El Bandito]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 31 July 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

The main difference I have noted is that IS brawl abilities are even better than they were before (and it was a strength before)...a lot of ac20 brawler builds can mount a LFE and have better speed/heat management/firepower than pre-new tech. That plus skill tree survivablity is a big improvement. At range the Clans have the edge still and I don't see much in new tech that moved that needle (so far anyway) the gap has closed a little though. At low mid-range....the ballistics abilities of the IS are vastly improved there and make a difference....the Clan advantage was large at 500 meters and now isn't as big. Under 300 meters, the IS wrecks now if it gets into brawlers vs. brawlers. The Clan small laser and cspl nerfs and the srm 4 spread nerf make it tough for Clans to win at sub-300.

I am still seeing plenty of successful Orion-IIC and Linebacker rushes in CW. Those mechs are excellent brawlers.

Lucian Nostra, on 31 July 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

Has yet to be an issue, the damage output for the heat they generate is amazing for a PPC

Not that amazing, since regular PPC, Light PPC, and SNPPC all have similar heat to damage ratio.

Edited by El Bandito, 31 July 2017 - 08:14 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I think it is kind of a no brainer that IS mech are more powerful now. I mean they just got a huge tech upgrade and the LFE's alone were pretty huge.

If that was the point of the post then I don't think there really needed to be a post about it. IF it was an IS is now OP post, I think it is probably too early to tell but I do know that the IS are having a much easier time of it in FW because I played Clan the first 7 days and now am playing IS this week. However IS has a fairly large tonnage advantage and I think there are alot of the Mercs are playing IS right now so they can play with the new toys and those two factors may very well be why IS is having a easy time of it. They kind of need to equalize tonnage before we can say for sure if the new tech has corrected or possible over corrected the balance.

[Mawai]

Whenever I looked at the durability quirks and skill tree ... I found it was generally not worth it.

In most cases, the added durability amounted to one alpha strike (say 30 damage more on CT ... perhaps a bit more in specific cases like the pre-nerf HBK with massive structure quirks). However, in order to maximize that benefit, a large investment in the armor/structure skill tree was required which meant giving up firepower, mobility, utility/modules or something else that I generally found to be more valuable.

I found 10% more firepower range/damage/bonus effects/speed/twisting/turning/uav/etc was more useful than the 10 to 15% armor/structure bonus.

The main problem was that the armor/structure bonus applied to the entire mech while most of the time it is only the portion on specific chassis elements that is useful (most often the CT).

The cataphract example of the OP already has 110 CT armor just with 88+quirks ... adding 15% from maxed out Armor skill tree (if it gets that high) amounts to 16 more armor or 1/4 to 1/2 of a typical alpha strike ... i.e. in my opinion ... not worth it . Even the 22 from the quirk itself is less than one typical alpha strike ... so although it is useful ... there is no way it has much if any effect on overall balance of this mech vs clan mechs which will carve through the quirk hps in a fraction of a second from a typical alpha.


Edit: Overall clan vs IS balance may be in a better place now (I haven't played enough to know) but if that is the case it is likely due to the new weapons and not to armor quirks which (as far as I know) have been around for a long time. Also, IS had a lot of ground to make up on clans and from the comments in this thread it sounds like the clans still have the edge even if the gap has closed a bit.

Edited by Mawai, 31 July 2017 - 08:24 AM.

[HGAK47]

I prefer IS mechs.

IS mechs generally allow for more customisation, more fun and funky odd builds.

Clan mechs are a little boring. I used to love my Kodiaks before they slammed them into the ground with agility nerfs. The KDK 3 still makes me smile every now and again but the Spirit Bear is absolutly obsolete now. (Especially when the MadCat can trump the SB`s signature build)

[Gas Guzzler]

Jun Watarase, on 31 July 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

Heavy PPC too hot? Try using clan ER PPCs lol, except you are doing 2/3rds of the damage.

I can bring 4 cER PPCs and like 28-30 DHS. I can't even bring 4 IS ER PPCs with that many DHS, let alone Heavy PPCs. I don't necessarily think heavy PPCs are too hot though.

Jun Watarase, on 31 July 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

Your clan mechs have huge alphas? OK, good luck focusing all of that on one location when your opponent can torso twist half way through your laser burn beause his pulse lasers have a duration of 0.6s or less.

Doesn't seem to be an issue, especially when dual gauss is mixed in there. There is a slight trade off, but... big damage wins, especially when you can do it further away.

Sorry, Clan mechs are still objectively better as far as I can tell.

[Humpday]

eh, to an extent some builds are more powerful.
My WHM-6R with dual uac10s and 4 meds is an nice wreaker, IIlya with the same, less 1 mlas, is nice.

But really...the only things worth anything are the Uac10 and ER Med...and only rarely will I use ERMed bc they are freaking hot has heck and IS can't hold enough DHS to keep this things cool...I mean I run hot even running Uac10s.

Other than that...MRMs are terrible, RACs are the same...

I mean I guess there are some builds that can make use of new PPCs, but HPPC is super hot, and cycles very slow.
And Light PPC...well they're hot as well, and to get anything decent out of them you have to boat. I mean at that point just take a UAC5 and be done with it.

Clan side though...something unexpected happened where Heavy Meds are sick nasty powerful. Definitely like those...Heavy large, not so much, little to hot, little too long burn, and a whole lot of cycle time.

I mean IS is in a better place, but Clan is still superior. Just look at what the EBJ and MKII can mount, and take any IS mech in comparison. Both those things can spit out a what....70-90pt alpha with a bagillion heat-sinks. Now you might be able to get that "alpha" number artificially high using MRMs, but those things are worthless for concentrated damage.

Also, most my build that got an LFE, just gained more DHS, didn't bother re-configuring them weapons wise.

Edited by Humpday, 31 July 2017 - 08:51 AM.

[Lucian Nostra]

El Bandito, on 31 July 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

I am still seeing plenty of successful Orion-IIC and Linebacker rushes in CW. Those mechs are excellent brawlers.




Not that amazing, since regular PPC, Light PPC, and SNPPC all have similar heat to damage ratio.

Sorry I left out the whole part about the 30 pinpoint which you can't achieve with erppcs or ppcs. Even if they up the ghost heat limit 2 hppc will be better as it occupies 2 hardpoints instead of 3 and comes in a ton and a slot under trip ppc. IS boys can keep ignoring it but hppc is damn good

[Gas Guzzler]

Lucian Nostra, on 31 July 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

Sorry I left out the whole part about the 30 pinpoint which you can't achieve with erppcs or ppcs. Even if they up the ghost heat limit 2 hppc will be better as it occupies 2 hardpoints instead of 3 and comes in a ton and a slot under trip ppc. IS boys can keep ignoring it but hppc is damn good

In practice I found its sustained DPS on heavies or mediums limited due to DHS limitations. On assaults you need to mix with ACs but then it can be decent, the problem is even a 40 PPFLD alpha on an assault is pretty weak when there are 80-94 damage Gauss vomit alphas being thrown around. Its a pretty good weapon though, probably one of my favorites of the new tech.

[R Valentine]

Lucian Nostra, on 31 July 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

Sorry I left out the whole part about the 30 pinpoint which you can't achieve with erppcs or ppcs. Even if they up the ghost heat limit 2 hppc will be better as it occupies 2 hardpoints instead of 3 and comes in a ton and a slot under trip ppc. IS boys can keep ignoring it but hppc is damn good

Given that no IS mech can even carry 4 ERPPCs and still have enough heat sinks, while its stupid easy to bring 4 cERPPCs and more than enough heat sinks, cERPPCs still win out the day. Heavy PPCs are even heavier and have a minimum range, so unless you're a medium with jump jets(which only 2 mediums can even mount heavy PPCs with any real success), it's easy as hell to get under them. Heavy PPCs are good, but still far from OP.

[LordBraxton]

I play IS and clans, saved up a bunch for new IS tech, built a bunch of mechs and played em for a few days....


aaaaaaand Im already back in my clan mechs. Clan XL is better than light engine, and clan weapons are still better ton for ton and slot for slot.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

El Bandito, on 31 July 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

I am still seeing plenty of successful Orion-IIC and Linebacker rushes in CW. Those mechs are excellent brawlers.
.

Very True...but that is as much a matter of organization as anything. The Orion is a brawling beast (individually or in groups) and the Linebackers are probably the best pack brawlers in the game right now and with the speed they have a group can take advantage of IS decks that weren't built for pure brawling....although individually in QP or solo FW drops Linebackers are not the threat they are in groups. Point is, if both sides brought all brawlers right now, the IS would have the edge at that range. It's just an opinion, but I think it's hard to argue that IS brawlers have always been strong and are stronger now with skill tree + new tech.

[El Bandito]

Lucian Nostra, on 31 July 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

Sorry I left out the whole part about the 30 pinpoint which you can't achieve with erppcs or ppcs. Even if they up the ghost heat limit 2 hppc will be better as it occupies 2 hardpoints instead of 3 and comes in a ton and a slot under trip ppc. IS boys can keep ignoring it but hppc is damn good

HPPC is indeed good on select few mechs with JJs, for poptarting. However, that 30 pinpoint fails when poking against 78 point Clan laser alpha, without JJs. And without 12 ton Gauss like that of the Clans, IS can't really take good advantage of the HPPC.

Marquis De Lafayette, on 31 July 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

Very True...but that is as much a matter of organization as anything. The Orion is a brawling beast (individually or in groups) and the Linebackers are probably the best pack brawlers in the game right now and with the speed they have a group can take advantage of IS decks that weren't built for pure brawling....although individually in QP or solo FW drops Linebackers are not the threat they are in groups. Point is, if both sides brought all brawlers right now, the IS would have the edge at that range. It's just an opinion, but I think it's hard to argue that IS brawlers have always been strong and are stronger now with skill tree + new tech.

From my time spent on both sides, not a single IS Heavy mech can outbrawl Orion-IIC. IS Assaults can outlast the Orion-IIC, but IS tonnage is getting nerfed soon. Heck, I frequently solo Splatclops-Q with my Orion-IIC.

Edited by El Bandito, 31 July 2017 - 09:35 AM.

[R Valentine]

LordBraxton, on 31 July 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

I play IS and clans, saved up a bunch for new IS tech, built a bunch of mechs and played em for a few days....


aaaaaaand Im already back in my clan mechs. Clan XL is better than light engine, and clan weapons are still better ton for ton and slot for slot.

Of course the clan XL is better than the light engine. Anyone with half a brain knew that any mech you converted from XL to LFE was going to take either a speed nerf, a firepower nerf, or both. In fact, the only straight buff IS got out of the new tech was Light Ferro, which fits on a lot of mechs with 9 or so extra critical space but no weight. At least those mechs got a free ton or 2. Everyone else had to lose something just to avoid XL checks which never should have been a thing in the first place. I still pilot mostly clan too, because I didn't have to make any sacrifices on my clan mechs. They're just as good as they always were, only now with new tech.

[LordBraxton]

Kiran Yagami, on 31 July 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

Of course the clan XL is better than the light engine. Anyone with half a brain knew that any mech you converted from XL to LFE was going to take either a speed nerf, a firepower nerf, or both. In fact, the only straight buff IS got out of the new tech was Light Ferro, which fits on a lot of mechs with 9 or so extra critical space but no weight. At least those mechs got a free ton or 2. Everyone else had to lose something just to avoid XL checks which never should have been a thing in the first place. I still pilot mostly clan too, because I didn't have to make any sacrifices on my clan mechs. They're just as good as they always were, only now with new tech.

man you have an aggressive way of agreeing with someone!

but yeah, Im still Clan all the way, and any clan players who are complaining are just salty cause they lost (some of) their crutch when fighting IS. I like winning so Im sticking with clan tech. To be fair I dont touch faction play, but my score is far better in quickplay with clan rather than IS. I have broken 1k damage in the group queue a bunch over the past several days and every time it was in my scorch or onion IIC. Im lucky to hit 600-700dmg in my IS mechs.

[Grus]

More durable, but not always more powerful. Really depends on the individual wepon system and how they have it combined with the mech. But over all not more powerful just more durable.

[MechaBattler]

My Wolverines got a nice bump from the engine changes. Offensively they're the same.

I haven't really found any of my existing mechs to be super improved. Because a lot of them were running XLs. And weapons wise I feel I have more options. But not significantly improved damage output. MRMs feel lackluster because of their spread and not reliable enough because of their velocity. RACs are hot and do best when you find someone who is unfortunate enough to be without cover or back up. Seem more useful as support fire rather than in a push or dog fighting. HPPCs seem nice, if you have heat quirks and tonnage for enough heatsinks. Or if you're okay with taking your time between poptart shots.

I think it's a little easier to optimize your IS build now. But it's not a huge power creep. People who just stand in a hail of RAC fire seem to think so without the context of what it's like to use one.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

El Bandito, on 31 July 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

From my time spent on both sides, not a single IS Heavy mech can outbrawl Orion-IIC. IS Assaults can outlast the Orion-IIC, but IS tonnage is getting nerfed soon. Heck, I frequently solo Splatclops-Q with my Orion-IIC.

Fair enough....I certainly would have agreed with you pre new tech. Looking at things now, have you tried the Orion VA brawler with an LFE? ....I haven't run it in FW, but heck of a strong brawler with it being much faster with that LFE.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Mawai, on 31 July 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

Whenever I looked at the durability quirks and skill tree ... I found it was generally not worth it.

In most cases, the added durability amounted to one alpha strike (say 30 damage more on CT ... perhaps a bit more in specific cases like the pre-nerf HBK with massive structure quirks). However, in order to maximize that benefit, a large investment in the armor/structure skill tree was required which meant giving up firepower, mobility, utility/modules or something else that I generally found to be more valuable.

I found 10% more firepower range/damage/bonus effects/speed/twisting/turning/uav/etc was more useful than the 10 to 15% armor/structure bonus.

The main problem was that the armor/structure bonus applied to the entire mech while most of the time it is only the portion on specific chassis elements that is useful (most often the CT).

The cataphract example of the OP already has 110 CT armor just with 88+quirks ... adding 15% from maxed out Armor skill tree (if it gets that high) amounts to 16 more armor or 1/4 to 1/2 of a typical alpha strike ... i.e. in my opinion ... not worth it . Even the 22 from the quirk itself is less than one typical alpha strike ... so although it is useful ... there is no way it has much if any effect on overall balance of this mech vs clan mechs which will carve through the quirk hps in a fraction of a second from a typical alpha.


Edit: Overall clan vs IS balance may be in a better place now (I haven't played enough to know) but if that is the case it is likely due to the new weapons and not to armor quirks which (as far as I know) have been around for a long time. Also, IS had a lot of ground to make up on clans and from the comments in this thread it sounds like the clans still have the edge even if the gap has closed a bit.

The Survival tree depends heavily on the player. If you face-stare, a couple points of armor aren't going to make much difference. If you twist well and usually position so that you only get brushed by a bit of fire, it can pretty drastically expand your lifespan. I run full Survival on my glass-cannon clan heavies (TBR, EBJ) and it does wonders for keeping them alive. Even if you eat a lance worth of alphas to the face because you turned the wrong corner, that extra armor and structure can be the difference between losing half your weapons and just getting opened up.