89 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

JackalBeast, on 31 July 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

Man, khobai, that is some hardcore ninja quoting on your tablet. Do you even use a computer?
Assuming you don't use your tablet to play the actual game? Ya know that same tablet which apparently has the inability to quote people(lol)

if im on my computer im usually playing MWO not on the forums

Zergling, on 31 July 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

Uh, Clan ER Medium Laser is 1.26 HPS versus Clan Medium Pulse at 1.22 HPS. That is only 0.04 HPS difference, while a double heatsink is worth 0.15 HPS.

If you're talking about a mech that has the space for the heatsinks, an ER Medium Laser build will end up considerably cooler running than a Medium Pulse build.

Eg, 6x Medium Pulse Hellbringer
That is 7.31 HPS versus 4.25 heat dissipation per second, for 58.16% heat efficiency

vs 6x ER Medium Laser Hellbringer
That is 7.56 HPS versus 5.00 heat dissipation per second, for 66.14% heat efficiency


The Medium Pulse build does have higher maximum and sustained DPS though; 10.77 and 6.26 versus 8.4 and 5.56 for the ER Medium Laser build, but the Medium Pulse build isn't cooler running.

Yeah but just because medium pulse lasers can fire faster doesnt mean they have to

theyre not required to fire every time the cooldown is up, you can fire them at a slower rate. your HPS stat is misleading because it wrongly assumes youre firing every time cooldown is up.

if you fire medium pulses at the same rate that CERMLs fire at, then medium pulses require significantly less heat compared to CERMLs

medium pulse = 7 damage for 4.75 heat
er medium = 7 damage for 6.3 heat

the medium pulse does the same damage for 75% of the heat. but it also has significantly shorter beam duration and thats where it wins. And if you subtract out the heat savings as DHS, the MPL also weighs less than the CERML.

CMPL is a super efficient weapon. You get very decent heat to damage conversion in a very compact package. The only way youre getting better heat to damage conversion on a 300m-400m weapon is with ballistics which cost you a lot more in terms of tonnage and crit slots. But I like to combine CMPL with ballistics like UAC10s anyway.

Edited by Khobai, 31 July 2017 - 06:22 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

It is possible!!! That's all I wanted to see. Thank you, good sir for that

What I find bizarre is that with 4 C-Med Pulse and 2 Heavy Med the ghost heat limit is set to 4. And the heat spike on it is nuts.

[Khobai]

JackalBeast, on 31 July 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

It is possible!!! That's all I wanted to see. Thank you, good sir for that

What I find bizarre is that with 4 C-Med Pulse and 2 Heavy Med the ghost heat limit is set to 4. And the heat spike on it is nuts.

ghost heat is all screwed up for clan lasers

like why do microlasers even have ghost heat?

[Jackal Noble]

Khobai, on 31 July 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

ghost heat is all screwed up for clan lasers

like why do microlasers even have ghost heat?

It's gotta be the Nova that's to blame for that of course. Cuz, 12 er micros as 2.4 damage apiece comes out to WHOPPING 28.8 damage.

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 31 July 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

Yeah but just because medium pulse lasers can fire faster doesnt mean they have to

theyre not required to fire every time the cooldown is up, you can fire them at a slower rate. your HPS stat is misleading because it wrongly assumes youre firing every time cooldown is up.

if you fire medium pulses at the same rate that CERMLs fire at, then medium pulses require significantly less heat compared to CERMLs

medium pulse = 7 damage for 4.75 heat
er medium = 7 damage for 6.3 heat

the medium pulse does the same damage for 75% of the heat. but it also has significantly shorter beam duration and thats where it wins. And if you subtract out the heat savings as DHS, the MPL also weighs less than the CERML.

CMPL is a super efficient weapon. You get very decent heat to damage conversion in a very compact package. The only way youre getting better heat to damage conversion on a 300m-400m weapon is with ballistics which cost you a lot more in terms of tonnage and crit slots. But I like to combine CMPL with ballistics like UAC10s anyway.

Yeah, I was just thinking that I should have normalised the Medium Pulses to have same rate of fire as ER Mediums for that comparison.

Running the numbers again with normalised rate of fire, the 6x Medium Pulse build on the Hellbringer is cooler running than the Medium Pulse.


However, there are circumstances where Medium Pulses end up inferior, like mixed Large + Medium type laser builds.

Eg, take one of cookie cutter Clan Laser vomit builds, the Ebon Jaguar; 2x Large Pulse + 6x ER Medium with 25 DHS in total.
The build ends up with 12.22 HPS versus 4.25 heat dissipation/second, for 33.55% heat efficiency and 4.69 sustained DPS.

If the same build changes the ER Mediums for Medium Pulses (by dropping 6 DHS), it drops to 11.97 HPS and 3.2 heat dissipation/second, for 26.73% heat efficiency and 4.37 sustained DPS.

If all weapon cycle time is normalised to 5.00 second (of ER Medium Lasers), then the ER Medium Laser build changes to 35.47% heat efficiency and 4.68 sustained DPS, while the Medium Pulse build changes to 32.99% heat efficiency and 4.35 sustained DPS.

Interestingly, the difference is primarily caused by the Large Pulses; if the 2x Large Pulse in each build aren't being fired, then the ER Medium Laser build would be at 54.23% heat efficiency and 4.56 sustained DPS, while the Medium Pulse build would be at 54.23% heat efficiency and 4.72 sustained DPS.


So yeah, pure Medium Pulse builds do appear superior to pure ER Medium builds now, but the ER Medium still has a place in mixed builds.

[DaMuchi]

I think cmpls are the best laser to bring into close range combat. The dps, dph, range and duration are excellent balance the only problem is that it's heavy, so it is really a question of if you can fit it on your mech. The short range leaves you helpless a lot of the time so I normally pair 6 mpl with 2 erll, allowing you to engage competently at any range. But again, it's a mech lab problem to fit mpl on.

[El Bandito]

HLL pairs very well with CERML. Less so with CPML.

[Jackal Noble]

El Bandito, on 31 July 2017 - 09:52 PM, said:

HLL pairs very well with CERML. Less so with CPML.

Maybe for alpha at 360 + m, but the C-MPL allows for a bit more sustain fire due to lower heat and is closer to range. I use medium pulse during long cooldown periods heavy lasers suffer. Also, due to the ghost heat limit of being 4 total medium lasers when used in conjunction with 2 heavy medium lasers, C-medium pulses allow for faster cycling.

Haven't messed a whole lot with the HLL tho

[Baba Yogi]

JackalBeast, on 31 July 2017 - 10:21 PM, said:

Maybe for alpha at 360 + m, but the C-MPL allows for a bit more sustain fire due to lower heat and is closer to range. I use medium pulse during long cooldown periods heavy lasers suffer. Also, due to the ghost heat limit of being 4 total medium lasers when used in conjunction with 2 heavy medium lasers, C-medium pulses allow for faster cycling.

Haven't messed a whole lot with the HLL tho

You use HvL with MPL? They are rather bad combo, one of MPLs biggest advantage is the duration, which is the worst part of HvL. Cooldown dont sync as well which means everytime you peak you are only bringing only half your firepower, and if you are only going to peak for HvL cd, bring a second set of it. 1HvL does more damage than 2 mpls for the same weight.

Imo if you are going HvL you should either combo it with ERMeds and alpha or just use 4 HvL and fire the second weapon group after 0.5 secs. ERmeds do the same damage as MPL for far longer ranges(so you are not locked into short range to use your full firepower), and since you are going to be staring down you opponent, duration is wasted(it is why mpls are rather bad for laser vomit, they dont combo well). Heat is not terrible issue as this types of builds are meant to fire&hide, not brawl. Imo only small lasers are managable in a brawl as backup to ballistics or missiles.

[Khobai]

Lordhammer, on 01 August 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

(it is why mpls are rather bad for laser vomit, they dont combo well).

MPL/LPL combo works perfectly fine for laser vomit

[Baba Yogi]

Khobai, on 01 August 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

MPL/LPL combo works perfectly fine for laser vomit

ERMed does that job better for less tonnage and more range. If you want short range go 9mpl Maddic, if you want long range take 2lpl+4-5-6ermeds. Now that the range nerf has been reverted and gauss/ppc nerfed we'll see more and more of the old vomit.

[Khobai]

Lordhammer, on 01 August 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

ERMed does that job better for less tonnage and more range. If you want short range go 9mpl Maddic, if you want long range take 2lpl+4-5-6ermeds. Now that the range nerf has been reverted and gauss/ppc nerfed we'll see more and more of the old vomit.

CMPLs weigh less than CERMLs if you factor in the extra DHS you have to take for CERMLs. CMPLs cost more hard tonnage but make it up in pseudo-tonnage by not having to take more DHS.

CERMLs are categorically inferior to CMPLs in every single way other than a very minor range advantage. I have no problem closing an extra 100m-150m to use the CMPLs. And the CLPLs still allow me to do some damage while im closing the distance gap. But once I get inside 400m I will dominate anyone using CERMLs.

And if I want long range im gonna go with something like CERLLs, not CERMLs. CERMLs are a medium range weapon at best. The max effective range of CERMLs is only about 500-550m, beyond that its not really worth firing them. Their range advantage over CMPLs isnt that impressive considering how inferior they are in every other category.

CERML are no longer the best all-around laser choice. Theyre good as a specialized option to complement weapons like gauss that want to stay outside brawling ranges. Thats about it.

Edited by Khobai, 01 August 2017 - 07:26 AM.

[davoodoo]

tt
ermlas 5 heat 7 dmg
mplas 4 heat 7 dmg
hmlas 7 heat 10 dmg

mwo
ermlas 6.3heat 7 dmg (26% increase)
mplas 4.75heat 7 dmg (19% increase)
hmlas 8 heat 10 dmg (14% increase)

any wonder why hmlas is more heat efficient than ermed??

Edited by davoodoo, 01 August 2017 - 07:20 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

any wonder why hmlas is more heat efficient than ermed??

Because CERML heat is set too high. ISERML heat is set too high as well.

It doesnt make any sense that the LL->ERLL is +1 heat but then the ML->ERML is also +1 heat.

Why does the ISERML cost the same heat increase when it gains less max range than the ISERLL? Something about that is just wrong.

CERML should go from 6.3->6.0 heat
ISERML should go from 4.5->4.3 heat

I also think the CERML beam duration is too long. 1.25 is ridiculous.

Edited by Khobai, 01 August 2017 - 07:35 AM.

[davoodoo]

Actually is ermed heat is 10% lower than in tt.
5 vs 4.5
Its regular medium which is too hot.
3 vs 3.4 (13% increase)

also llas 8 vs 7 heat(12% decrease), erllas 12 vs 8(33% decrease) and lpl 10 vs 7.25(27% decrease) on top of each getting 8 vs 9 dmg(12% increase)

remember however that in tt heat is relatively little problem and range is very important as it makes hitting target easier reducing rng, in mwo its a niche upgrade.

Edited by davoodoo, 01 August 2017 - 07:47 AM.

[Khobai]

yeah but tabletop stats dont always directly translate into MWO.

the reason why the medium laser is hotter in MWO is because you can aim all your medium lasers at one location.

but in tabletop all your medium lasers roll seperate random locations.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 01 August 2017 - 07:08 AM, said:

CERML are no longer the best all-around laser choice.

They have never been the best all-around laser choice.....they have the same role they really always have, to combine with Gauss and large lasers. Sure you had some ERML boats but those weren't common outside of lights. They got better for that job recently with the max range buff too.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 August 2017 - 07:45 AM.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 01 August 2017 - 07:44 AM, said:

yeah but tabletop stats dont always directly translate into MWO.

the reason why the medium laser is hotter in MWO is because you can aim all your medium lasers at one location.

but in tabletop all your medium lasers roll seperate random locations.

Yeah i know, but thats problem invented by pgi and their(and community) insistance on pinpoint damage...

on the other hand in tt medium laser would be less accurate than "inherently inaccurate" mrm at 210m because mere act of aiming at long range produced +4 to hit, while mrm only got medium range +2 and inherent inaccuracy of +1, that ofc didnt happen with ermed which had same medium range as mrm.
range=important in tt.

Edited by davoodoo, 01 August 2017 - 07:55 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

They got better for that job recently with the max range buff too.

But it came with a heat increase and longer beam duration. That killed it for me.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 01 August 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

But it came with a heat increase and longer beam duration.

The extra heat is barely noticeable (it's a 5% increase) considering the cooldown got increased as well and the duration is an acceptable nerf for better range (since longer range lasers can accept duration trade-offs).