79 replies to this topic

[AssaultPig]

it's not that fun to always drive the same three heavies every match in QP

though I agree that the mediums with low engine caps are kinda DOA

[Jun Watarase]

MechaBattler, on 01 August 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

The engine changes they made improved things for mediums. They lowered Heavies and Assault agility. However there are a few exceptions like the Linebacker and Dragon for heavies.

I think we're at a better balance between classes than before. Not surprisingly a lot of people were pissed that their pet heavies were no longer ballerinas. And of course outraged their 100 ton Kodiaks performed like other 100 ton mechs.

Uh...they actually increased heavies/assault agility, especially since heavier mechs dont need a large engine to be agile anymore.

Pre engine de-sync, I had a WHM-6R and I had to put a XL 325 in it because otherwise it couldnt reverse fast enough when peeking.

Now, i dont even need any mobility quirks and i can use a XL 300, and its agile enough.

Even my highlander IIC feels very agile now. The agility gap between a medium and an assault isnt large enough at the moment.

[MechaBattler]

Anything not able to run a big engine got a buff. And conversely anything that ran a big engine most likely got a nerf. Except for in cases where they deemed it worthy to have agility higher than it's tonnage warranted. But at the very least agility now scales down as you go up in tonnage. That's better than facing a Timberwolf that has armor, firepower, and mobility thanks to it's massive engine and all you have is 40-55 tons of average stats, especially if you're IS.

[mogs01gt]

MechaBattler, on 01 August 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

Anything not able to run a big engine got a buff. And conversely anything that ran a big engine most likely got a nerf. Except for in cases where they deemed it worthy to have agility higher than it's tonnage warranted. But at the very least agility now scales down as you go up in tonnage. That's better than facing a Timberwolf that has armor, firepower, and mobility thanks to it's massive engine and all you have is 40-55 tons of average stats, especially if you're IS.

yeah but doesnt the TBR run cooler now with the new skill tree?

[Aim64C]

In my own experience, I set up this shadowhawk I felt was going to be pretty awesome... got into the game and took some ATMs only to notice my legs almost evaporated... which seemed rather odd...

Come to find out, I had, at one point, left this thing with very little armor. God only knows why it was considered an acceptable idea, at the time - but that will have to be fixed before I try running that, again.

[Gristle Missile]

As someone who prefer's mediums over any other weight class, I'll be happy to give you my perspective.

LordBraxton, on 01 August 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

I can go 105kph in my linebacker, or 87 in any of my omnis... I can go 80kph in my IS heavies with more weapons\armor...
why would I ever bring a medium over a fast heavy?

There no doubt that the linebacker is good. But to be honest, it plays more like a medium than a heavy. (so from here on, just assume most of what I say doesn't apply to the identity crisis mechs) It lacks the structure of other heavies, and the hitboxes aren't that great - big CT. It can hit hard and take hits, but it wont last in a prolonged fight.

Its not unusual to see roles overlap into other weight classes like this - take the Cicada for instance - its a medium that thinks its a light.

Back to the original question: Why take a medium over a fast heavy.
We will tackle the speed question first:

The difference between 80ish kps for fast heavies and 80-120kph for mediums doesn't seem like a lot - but it is more than that.
Acceleration and Deceleration rates vary by tonnage. For example, you can have a Battlemaster going over 80 KPH, but it is going to take a LONG time for it to get there and then slow down from that. (Don't get me started on turning and torso twist rates)
Lights/Mediums (in general) can quickly speed up, slow down, and turn better, even if they go the same speed as a heavy.
This leads to better agility and maneuverability.
Plus, going that fast requires bigger engines than their lighter counterparts, therefore taking away from a heavies firepower. - One of the advantages they have.

Second point: Durability

Mediums have good durability for their tonnage and speed - there are many with excellent hitboxes, which make them tankier than even some heavy mechs. (Take the crab, hunchback, centurion, enforcer, etc)
Plus they are noticeably smaller, which makes them harder targets to hit. - which is huge considering all the SRM, MRM, ACs, PPC, Gauss, and etc.

Yes, heavies will have the advantage in sheer damage absorption, but don't underestimate the ability to sneak, maneuver, peak, flank, and retreat to all mitigate the damage you will take in a medium - speed and agility is also your armor.

Plus, I feel mediums have enough armor to fill the role they were given. - They can't take heavy direct fire for long, but can take a beating during a push, or survive light skirmish/brawls till the end of the game (if you play smart)

Third point: Firepower

Yes, heavies can boat more weapons - but my TBT-7M missile boat can do the same job at lower tonnage than a those useless LRM assaults

Many weapons have an advantage on mediums due to the ability to close the gap faster - (especially on SRMs, LBX, pulse lasers, etc) SRMs are a perfect example of a strong weapon made stronger on a medium - range is just as important as damage, and mediums can have an easy time making sure you are in optimal range for the weaponry.


In conclusion:

The main draw of mediums is that they are a good balance of speed/agility, firepower, and durability. They are a big enough threat to require attention, but they don't go down all that easily and it will be hard to nail down a kill.

Think about it, who is more deadly? The assualt slowly coming up the hill, pointing that big CT towards you and blasting away...or that medium who is on your flanks, backstabbing, taking out your lights, and spotting for the team. Good luck chasing it down with a heavier mech.

Side question:

LordBraxton, on 01 August 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

Also, why do easy targets like the centurion not have at least equivalent armor quirks as the bushwacker, who seems superior even without the quirks?

First off, the Bushwacker is 55 tons and the centurion is 50 tons - so BSW SHOULD have more armor. Though that does not make the mech tanker.
The centurion's left arm is there entirely for shielding - and does so effectively. In fact, the centurion hitboxes make it quite a tanky mech for it's tonnage. It was the OG zombie brawler.

Don’t let flat numbers sway how strong a mech can truly be. I said the same to all who were saying Annihilator is crap because of how slow it was.

Edited by Gristle Missile, 01 August 2017 - 01:03 PM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Dunno what OP's talking about. My mediums are some of my top performers, and some of the most fun to play. My Blackjacks, my Huntsman, my Hunchback IIC, my Shadow Cat, my Shadow Hawk...

Actually, pretty much every medium I own except my Cicadas perform well and are fun to play.

[LordBraxton]

Khobai, on 01 August 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

mediums are still inferior to fast heavies

they need to give mediums like 12.5% speed tweak instead of only 7.5%

that would give mediums 5% extra speed for speccing into speed tweak

this, thank you.... I like your suggestion, also bigger engine should = more agility which others have pointed out.


If any of you perform better in a medium than a heavy you just need to work on performing under fire, because the only true advantage of a medium mech is that you are less of a threat, and are shot at last. Which is a pretty pathetic advantage considering it is always better to have two heavies than a heavy supported by a medium... I don't find mediums to be markedly more agile than fast heavies, and if you know how to stay in position and plan ahead that tiny agility buff is meaningless.

I personally won't touch mediums till they get significant improvements, but if the 'medium experts' out here think they are fine, I guess Ill just stick with better mechs??

The faux macho attitude that infects mwo is so toxic. People would rather act tough and pretend everything is fine to save face in a tiny cult gaming community. Makes me a sad person.

But, chances are nothing will change and mediums will continue to be easy kills for me in my 65-85 ton mechs

[SuperFunkTron]

LordBraxton, on 01 August 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

this, thank you.... I like your suggestion, also bigger engine should = more agility which others have pointed out.

Could you please explain the physics behind this one to me? As far as I understand, the mass is consistent regardless of the engine size. A higher top speed sure, but how do exactly do you support sharper turning and increased maneuverability simply by giving more horse power when it is still forced to redirect the same weight around.

LordBraxton, on 01 August 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

I personally won't touch mediums till they get significant improvements, but if the 'medium experts' out here think they are fine, I guess Ill just stick with better mechs??

The faux macho attitude that infects mwo is so toxic. People would rather act tough and pretend everything is fine to save face in a tiny cult gaming community. Makes me a sad person.

Do you mean better medium mechs or another weight class? Does your struggle with mediums mean that everyone else is struggling as well and that medium mechs are clearly in need of massive buffs to suit you? Or is it possible that others thrive in the play style that medium mechs provide for them and can pull the same kinds of numbers that many heavy and assault pilots can pull.

I don't mean to laugh at the pie on your face and I know you will shortly throw some at me simply for disagreeing with you, but you're going to have a hard time proving (with facts) that medium mechs are now worse off than they were before the engine desync.

Just in case you assume that this is me being macho and saying that mediums are awesome, maybe you should consider some of the assaults that also have improved mobility at the cost of weapon space and can perform extremely well in competent hands. Many people try piloting the Gargoyle, many people complain, but those who know how to use it can easily go toe to toe with mechs of all weight classes. I may have misunderstood, but by your reasoning the Gargoyle also needs massive improvements to make it worth while, you know, because it's tough for a lot of people to use.

[Valhallan]

Mediums will ALWAYS be inferior to heavies, too light to mount enough dakka and too heavy to be really fast (barring some 40 tonners like the cicada and viper). In QP barring queue times there is 0 reason to taking anything other than a heavy if you just want to powergame. In FP they are only relatively useless because of the high tonnage allowance, Which is why i say nerf all tonnage by 40 more tons and allow dropping with less than 4, this will make decisions more interesting compared to the current heavy spam + 1 light.

[JagdpantherX]

I think its just the nature of mechwarrior. I don't remember a single mechwarrior game where a medium is better than a heavy.

[LordBraxton]

Im not even struggling with mediums... I just always score far higher in heavier mechs.. So I don't play mediums cause they are objectively weaker...

Ive been playing since CB, just got back into the game and am less than a millimeter from tier 1, Im no pro, but I carry the average quickplay. I can't carry in a medium. I can carry in a 65-85 ton frontline mech though.

Edited by LordBraxton, 01 August 2017 - 05:01 PM.

[SuperFunkTron]

LordBraxton, on 01 August 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

Im not even struggling with mediums... I just always score far higher in heavier mechs.. So I don't play mediums cause they are objectively weaker...

Ive been playing since CB, just got back into the game and am less than a millimeter from tier 1, Im no pro, but I carry the average quickplay. I can't carry in a medium. I can carry in a 65-85 ton frontline mech though.

I'm going to try to clear this up one more time because it seems to have been missed. You not carrying in mediums does not mean that there aren't plenty of people who can carry in mediums. Damage alone is hardly an indicator of how effective a mech is as that score can be padded by LRM damage and laser damage spread.

Does 800 and 12 assists in a heavy objectively make a player better than a locust pilot who only pulls 300 damage but managed to assassinate 6 players? Does a fast medium or light not contribute when they distract the attention of an enemy and effectively negate their fire? There are far too many variables involved to make this claim "objective" on weight class alone. There is no absolute here and assuming that damage along creates objectivity is the first step to throwing it out the window.

[El Bandito]

LordBraxton, on 01 August 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

We used to ask these questions all the time... but I think we as a community have lost hope that mediums will ever be useful outside of FactionPlay

They are useful in Group Queue when the team is big. MS 12-man Crab rush is well known.

[GunnerPanda]

Yeah, mediums are terrible. Please buff the heck out of them so that I can completely faceroll teams with them, especially my bushwackers, those really need buffs. I can only take on two assaults, a heavy and a medium right now. I need to be able to take on the entire enemy assault lanceby myself.

[Alexander of Macedon]

LordBraxton, on 01 August 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

Im not even struggling with mediums... I just always score far higher in heavier mechs.. So I don't play mediums cause they are objectively weaker...

Ive been playing since CB, just got back into the game and am less than a millimeter from tier 1, Im no pro, but I carry the average quickplay. I can't carry in a medium. I can carry in a 65-85 ton frontline mech though.

[Baba Yogi]

LordBraxton, on 01 August 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

Im not even struggling with mediums... I just always score far higher in heavier mechs.. So I don't play mediums cause they are objectively weaker...

Ive been playing since CB, just got back into the game and am less than a millimeter from tier 1, Im no pro, but I carry the average quickplay. I can't carry in a medium. I can carry in a 65-85 ton frontline mech though.

it just means u dont know how to effectively use them. I have like 30 odd screenshots of matches i made over 1k with mediums. I stopped saving after a while

Edited by Lordhammer, 01 August 2017 - 06:01 PM.

[Thorqemada]

I am a dedicated IS and Medium Pilot and granted i shrunk my playtime by circumstances as well by my own motivation by 95% but when i play i usually take a Heavy bcs there are so many games where a IS-Medium simply has little to no role (my science of the Clans showed me Clans have some very capable Mediums back then that were more successful than my IS-Heavies).

A few IS-Medium may be playable with more participation optons but that are not the Mechs that are fun to play to me - my fav Medium is stil the Centurion - that is a Mech how a Mech should be designed and played accordingly.

[Pariah Devalis]

I'm sorry. I cannot hear you over the sounds of my Huntsman's warhorns blasting due to absolutely crushing it, game after game. It really isn't the mech, but the pilot, and how a pilot likes to fight. Mediums click for me. I am consistently the top scorer in any given game, and I dislike piloting heavies or assaults. Of course, I started off as a light mech pilot, so I learned how to actually, ya know, consider how I approach a fight, and give myself outs.

[xe N on]

LordBraxton, on 01 August 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

Im not even struggling with mediums... I just always score far higher in heavier mechs.. So I don't play mediums cause they are objectively weaker...

Ive been playing since CB, just got back into the game and am less than a millimeter from tier 1, Im no pro, but I carry the average quickplay. I can't carry in a medium. I can carry in a 65-85 ton frontline mech though.

For me its upside down. In my meta mediums I score much higher and also often higher than other heavy players. Mostly because in peak-a-boo meds got some advantage because of size and acceleration. And they aren't that often primary target as heavies.

My Hunchbacks and Huntsmen score 400+ damage on regular basis. Yesterday, I had a game with 1100 damage with my 78 laser alpha HBK-IIC-A

Edited by xe N on, 01 August 2017 - 08:06 PM.