79 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

Yeonne Greene, on 01 August 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

If I want to earn C-bills to fund my derp-'Mech addiction or stat-wh*re, I drop in a BJ-1X or BJ-A. They are my most consistent performers, regular 700+. Them, and my LCT-1E.

So, I dunno. I don't know that Mediums are really hurting right now. There are a lot of unfortunately bad ones (RIP Kintaro), but there are also some that seem to be almost as powerful as the heavies in terms of how they can influence a match.

Reading thru this thread, I kept agreeing with both extreme views being expressed (mediums are great, mediums suck) depending on which medium I had in mind at the moment. BJ-A and Nova in mind and I could not agree more with the "mediums are great" point of view. Then I started thinking about how slow my Griffins feel now or how vulnerable my Shadow Cat is and then I found myself agreeing with the "mediums suck" mentality.

In the end, its like with all the mechs in this game. Depending on the hit boxes, the hard points, and the dartboard; some mechs are great and some are absolute dreck. Next month PGI will undoubtedly decide to do something that causes one to become the other and the next month something else just as goofy (though undoubtedly data driven ).

As to the general idea suggested by the OP that heavies are better than mediums...well, yeah. For the most part, heavier mechs do more damage and take more damage before dying. So yeah heavies are going to be more desirable for that.

[LowSubmarino]

Mwo community is mostly arcade style gameplay fans.

On huge maps where faster mechs can actually play guerilla style and attack targets of opportunity or hide somewhere in much linger games with bigger amies and more diverse and meaningful objectives mediums and lights would be absolutely essential with their speed and ability to attack here then over there and then just vanish into thin air. Theyd own hard.

In mwoa artifical tiny arena style, 5 min arcade matches you can easily corner even the fastest mechs in no time. Another variable tjat greately reduces immersion and also emotional invest in mwo is how insignificant it is too loose/get destroyed. It be way, waayyyyyyyyY × 10000000000 more fun if you had to carefully sell looted equipment, maintain your mechs, try to keep your mechs afloat. There should be much more real repurcussions in terms of how the game reacts to your actions.

The real game should be faction gameplay with real consequences. QP should be the woods league where you can just play 'for free' as a way to test builds and have quick ez games.

Sadly though it all went a completly different and much less immersive route.

Its just 5 min arcade matches sadly and it doeant matter how you play. Loosing mechs doesnt mean anything but also can mean anything in this arcade game.

Wouldnt work in mwo and how it turned out to be.

[LordBraxton]

I agree with a lot of the people posting here, and I always ignore the 'I had a good match in X mech so it's fine' crap

There is no role warfare, if I want to contribute to a team to the best of my ability I bring a heavy or fast assault. I can do tons of damage in mediums, because I am shot at last, but I know if I brought a heavy I'd be contributing my armor AND firepower instead of just my firepower, because enemies tend to spread damage more when they see multiple targets of similar threat value. In the end, I just want to see mediums, but specifically under-performers like the Centurion, buffed with some agility and armor quirks.

Please don't post any more match statistics, Ive saved half a dozen 1k+ damage games from the group queue from the past week, either my OniIIC or Scorch, and those screenshots don't make me a top tier pilot.. Even in the group queue you get matched vs bads sometimes. Hell I think I have a 1k dmg screenshot with my Pretty Baby, and we all know that mech is far from, 'just fine.'

[Khobai]

IS mediums arnt fine because ISXL isnt fine. the only way to fix mediums is to make ISXL survive side torso destruction.

a medium needs to move significantly faster than a heavy while having more firepower and survivability than a light. You cant do all of that unless ISXL is the same as CXL. ISXL should survive side torso destruction

and Mediums should get +12.5% speed tweak instead of +7.5%

those changes would help mediums go faster than heavies while significantly increasing their survivability

Edited by Khobai, 02 August 2017 - 09:20 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Khobai, on 02 August 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

IS mediums arnt fine because ISXL isnt fine. the only way to fix mediums is to make ISXL survive side torso destruction.

a medium needs to move significantly faster than a heavy while having more firepower and survivability than a light. You cant do all of that unless ISXL is the same as CXL. ISXL should survive side torso destruction

Light Fusion engines solve this problem nicely if you're fine with your 50-55 ton mech running in the 80-100 kph speed band. You end up with fewer available tons, but this also means you have smaller weapons payloads and therefore fewer heat issues.

[SuperFunkTron]

Bush Hopper, on 02 August 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

Wow, so many words for "get gud". Seriously?

How was "get gud" the only thing you took from that? I explained that there is much more than just damage scores at the end and that mediums need to be played in a different manner with different priorities and tactics. Appreciating that there are other ways to demonstrate value and worth is far from something as base as "get gud".

[Khobai]

Quote

Light Fusion engines solve this problem nicely

they dont solve the problem for mediums because light fusion engines are too heavy for mediums.

like I said, as a point of balance, mediums need to move significantly faster than heavies while having more firepower and survivability than lights.

LFE only gets you 2 of those 3 things at best. Mediums need all three and ISXL surviving a side torso blowout is the only way to get all 3. That and a speed tweak buff because mediums are forced to use inefficient engine sizes and need a speed tweak buff to help with that.

Edited by Khobai, 02 August 2017 - 09:54 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Khobai, on 02 August 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

they dont solve the problem for mediums because light fusion engines are too heavy for mediums.

They're too heavy for cicadas and phoenix hawks. they're not too heavy for centurions and shadow hawks. The difference is how fast they die if they drop under 90 kph.

[fogsworth]

Logical proof of heavy mech superiority!

1. As people have pointed out, quick play is no longer based on tonnage or 4/4/4/4, so queue time is irrelevant.

2. On average, mechs with more tons of weapons do more damage.

3. CBills is based on damage.

4. Therefore, on average, you'll earn more cbills with a heavier mech.

Why do I still run mediums?!

Maybe medium mechs need +cbill quirks?

Edited by fogsworth, 02 August 2017 - 09:58 AM.

[Khobai]

if lights go 130-140

and heavies go 60-80 (upto 90 for clan heavies)

then mediums should be going 100-120 normally. 90 should be the absolute slowest a medium goes, so its still going at least as fast as a fast clan heavy. if mediums arnt going faster than heavies, whats the point of them having less weapons and armor?

mediums are going way too slow right now. they need to fall in between lights and heavies for speed.

Edited by Khobai, 02 August 2017 - 10:06 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Khobai, on 02 August 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

if lights go 130-140

and heavies go 60-80

then mediums should be going 100-120

mediums are going way too slow right now

I err on the side of more firepower. My mediums run 85-100 so that I gain heat handling or an extra heavy weapon. (Note that I consider a Cicada to be a light, despite it's weight. It's about function.)

[Moldur]

If everybody argues whether or not it's balanced, does that make it balanced? hmmm

[Baba Yogi]

Dont get me wrong i would love to have mediums get a buff, i do play them most of the time. But tbh aside from slight agility buffs (meaning acc/dec/turn/twist ratings) they dont need anything else. They are far more flexible at which angle they can strike from than heavies, anyone who is bashing mediums needs to understand that. They are better at peeking and poking due to better agility, and most mediums can mount JJ which is immensely useful for their role in game. They have smaller siluette so takes longer to aim against them. All those negate the natural armor advantage of heavies. Lighter mediums can play flankers and force enemy to divert their attention from their frontlines, you do that with a regular heavy you get rushed as you are easy pickings. 50-55 tonners generally can even mount firepower close to heavies. If you are judging both classes in straight up fight/duel then as i said you do not know how to play them. Heavies are much better than mediums in a push, but assaults are much better at that than heavies as well. They all have their roles in the game.

Edited by Lordhammer, 02 August 2017 - 05:32 PM.

[xe N on]

Season 12:

Average match score of best light with > 100 matches played: 461
Average match score of best medium with > 100 matches played: 470
Average match score of best heavy with > 100 matches played: 503
Average match score of best assaultwith > 100 matches played: 576


Season 13:

Average match score of best light with > 100 matches played: 472
Average match score of best medium with > 100 matches played: 552
Average match score of best heavy with > 100 matches played: 511
Average match score of best assaultwith > 100 matches played: 664

What does this say? For me mediums are quite competitive.

Edited by xe N on, 02 August 2017 - 10:49 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

xe N on, on 02 August 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

Season 13:

Average match score of best light with > 100 matches played: 472
Average match score of best medium with > 100 matches played: 552
Average match score of best heavy with > 100 matches played: 511
Average match score of best assaultwith > 100 matches played: 664

What does this say?

That everybody shoots the Warhammer and the Night Gyr first.

[xe N on]

ScrapIron Prime, on 02 August 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

That everybody shoots the Warhammer and the Night Gyr first.

It sound funny, but that's my experience as medium pilot

Ah, forgot some thing. It says: NERF ASSAULTS!

Edited by xe N on, 02 August 2017 - 10:51 AM.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 02 August 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

if lights go 130-140

and heavies go 60-80 (upto 90 for clan heavies)

then mediums should be going 100-120 normally. 90 should be the absolute slowest a medium goes, so its still going at least as fast as a fast clan heavy. if mediums arnt going faster than heavies, whats the point of them having less weapons and armor?

mediums are going way too slow right now. they need to fall in between lights and heavies for speed.

Just how fast you want to get??

ffs urbie goes at 97.2kph and its quite fine...
Most hbk2c actually go at 82.6kph as bigger engine would sacrifice too much firepower...
Night gyrs run at 64.8kph and theyre still one of most popular clan mechs...

[mogs01gt]

xe N on, on 02 August 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

Season 12:

Average match score of best light with > 100 matches played: 461
Average match score of best medium with > 100 matches played: 470
Average match score of best heavy with > 100 matches played: 503
Average match score of best assaultwith > 100 matches played: 576


Season 13:

Average match score of best light with > 100 matches played: 472
Average match score of best medium with > 100 matches played: 552
Average match score of best heavy with > 100 matches played: 511
Average match score of best assaultwith > 100 matches played: 664

What does this say? For me mediums are quite competitive.

That is why happens when a specific medium is shrunk in size while others were increased.

[MechWarrior5152251]

My hunchbacks and 12 ERsmall Novas eat Heavies and Assaults for breakfast....

[Valhallan]

Ruslan Savelyev, on 01 August 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

While certain heavies are clearly the optimal choice for balancing damage output with survival, mediums have a lot of options in terms of mobility and size. If you aren't having fun, you are doing it wrong, and perpetually dropping in the same optimal geometry chassis doesn't seem fun. If you ever want to do comp or switch to group queue, your team will appreciate someone who can run a medium(or light) as effectively as a heavy. It is more satisfying for me to have a good game in a medium, where I need to play to the strengths of the 'Mech and take care with my positioning, than to just run something that has a MechLab advantage.

I know, fun is the primary factor, which is why i run furbies, ac20 cents and lrm trebs . But that was not what the op was saying/what i said and what some are missing out on with their statements here. Yes mediums can waste enemy teams or carry if you are l33t enough (nva/bjs, or enemy are potating enough). But that does not change the fact that the heavy is the best for powergaming. Anything you could do in other chassis' you could do better in an appropriate heavy. As much as i love my cent and treb for the funz, i know that even my troll mrm 80 rl 60 archer or splat orion could do better than them. For FW and comp it is the forced drop limits that make people bring mediums, otherwise it would be a heavy spam fest (and maybe some fast assaults) as exemplified in the standard boring dropdeck of 3xheavy + 1 light for clan or 2x fattlemaster + 1 heavy +1 light for IS.