114 replies to this topic

[Zergling]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 August 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

THANKYOU.gif

Seriously, every bupkus keeps comparing a build optimized to poke at 450-600 meters to one optimized for 350-450 meters. No **** you are going to get rolled. And you know what? Same build on an EBJ, plus this here TCII and cERPPC, gives you a 57-poke with a solid sustained DPS of 4.79 before skills and 380 meter cMPL with just 10% of the range nodes, with near-enough-as-makes-no-difference in laser duration and an insta-boop of 10 damage.

Like, goddamn, the whole point of the cLPL+cERML and Clan Goose-vomit is that it can fight outside the optimum IS range if the game turns into a standoff poke (and it often does in CW). If you are going to choose to fight within the IS power zone, the kit exists to do so as well or better. Rarely do I ever say this, but people...stop relying on the copy-paste cookie-cutter bullsh*t and figure out what are trying to do and what the best implements to do it are. If your fights are getting down in the weeds with the IS, isolate the tools that best fit the use case and build accordingly. That's what meta-gaming is.

Yup, comparable builds should be compared.

And if the Warhammer upgrades the Medium Lasers to ER Mediums for 396 meter optimal range, then it should be compared to a Hellbringer with 6x ER Meds for 400 meter optimal range.
In that case, it is 4.61 sustained DPS vs 5.56; Hellbringer still wins in firepower.

Edited by Zergling, 03 August 2017 - 10:47 PM.

[Vellron2005]

I don't know much, but I do know this..

Yesterday, on Frozen City conquest.. I put 3 x 70 CLRM + 4 CERSL alphas in optimal range into an urbanmech, and it just kept wizzing around and firing MG's like and angry little bee.

That much damage often kills a mech that could mount an Urbanmech as a weapon in itself..

Something is wrong here.. very very wrong..

[Lily from animove]

Vellron2005, on 03 August 2017 - 10:48 PM, said:

I don't know much, but I do know this..

Yesterday, on Frozen City conquest.. I put 3 x 70 CLRM + 4 CERSL alphas in optimal range into an urbanmech, and it just kept wizzing around and firing MG's like and angry little bee.

That much damage often kills a mech that could mount an Urbanmech as a weapon in itself..

Something is wrong here.. very very wrong..

the issue is damage distribution, lrms are poop vs mechs where each component isn't wide as an entire house. So the urbie just happily spins through your spread lrms distributing all the damage across it. The early lrm 30 MDD vs the DWF was amazing since the DWH had so much CT roof you could lrms snipe it's ct to death. then they changed some of it's hitboxes.
But this is a reaosn why the top tier players don't use lrm's because they are crap at applying deadly damage.

[Formosa The God]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 August 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

How fast is a quad ERPPC Battlemaster? Are you using a light engine or an XL?

It's speed doesn't matter as I'm not useing it as a ppc boat, it is just one example of is range quirks and skill tree for longer optimised range, there are a fair few is mechs than are a lot better with ppc and have the same optimal range, battle master is large pulse or erll boats, which are still longer range due to quirks (bar maybe large pulse, again I'm not complaining, just pointing out that these optimised builds mean that clan range advantage is a myth the more optimised you get.

As an aside I actually prefer medium pulse boats for my clan at the moment, good range, short duration and good damage, good for trading against medium laser is builds I've seen a lot of.

[DrxAbstract]

Carl Vickers, on 03 August 2017 - 10:35 PM, said:

Big difference at the end of the match when you are clanners bringing cheetas vs meds/heavies on the IS side, u are still out tonned, good knoweldge there buddy.

So sorry - 240 vs. 265 for a 300 Ton differential. I've seen tonnage disparities even higher than that in QP matches where it was all in one drop rather than being spread throughout 4... and the 'disadvantaged' team still won.

Build your deck without a Light or don't save it for the last drop? It's not like a well built Clan Medium can't stand up to an IS Medium/Heavy as it is .

I'm all for Clan and IS having 250 Tons a piece in FW (Forget 240 vs. 250), but suggesting a tonnage variation that has existed for months is responsible for recent occurrences in FW is an irresponsible knee-jerk scapegoating reaction that does more harm than good.

[DrxAbstract]

Formosa The God, on 03 August 2017 - 11:54 PM, said:

It's speed doesn't matter as I'm not useing it as a ppc boat, it is just one example of is range quirks and skill tree for longer optimised range, there are a fair few is mechs than are a lot better with ppc and have the same optimal range, battle master is large pulse or erll boats, which are still longer range due to quirks (bar maybe large pulse, again I'm not complaining, just pointing out that these optimised builds mean that clan range advantage is a myth the more optimised you get.

As an aside I actually prefer medium pulse boats for my clan at the moment, good range, short duration and good damage, good for trading against medium laser is builds I've seen a lot of.

The Clan range advantage is far from being a myth. You have to take specific variants of specific IS Mechs, which for some of them is all they have going for them, to approach the weapon performance aspects of Clan Weapons that ALL Clan Mechs can utilize, and this is completely absent considerations like 4 Ton, 1 Slot Clan ER Larges, 6 Ton 2 Slot Clan ER PPCs and 12 Ton Gauss Rifles.

The more 'optimized' you get, the less face time you see and more apparent the Clan weapon efficiency becomes.

[Formosa The God]

DrxAbstract, on 04 August 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

The Clan range advantage is far from being a myth. You have to take specific variants of specific IS Mechs, which for some of them is all they have going for them, to approach the weapon performance aspects of Clan Weapons that ALL Clan Mechs can utilize, and this is completely absent considerations like 4 Ton, 1 Slot Clan ER Larges, 6 Ton 2 Slot Clan ER PPCs and 12 Ton Gauss Rifles.

The more 'optimized' you get, the less face time you see and more apparent the Clan weapon efficiency becomes.

Sure when playing pugs, who don't know how to use these weapons properly anyway, but any decent cw player for is, is going to use the best mechs for the weight, that's battlemasters etc.

As a clan player when dropping against a good team all I ever is is battlemasters, griffins, marauders and these days, warhammers, which is my favourite is mech.

[Shinichi Yamamoto]

Dakota1000, on 03 August 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

Though CW isn't really decided by assaults mostly with the exception of 12 man teams bringing 12 of the same assault and crushing an enemy, but they'd do that with any mech. CW's mostly decided by heavies. Right now the IS can bring a Black Knight, Warhammer (or Cataphract if they're trying to go for more armor), and 2 Dragons, all of these mechs have defensive quirks that make them as hard to take down as mechs a weight class higher. Clan would be bringing 3 65 tonners and a 45 tonner in response.

Black Knight's waist level hardpoints, Cataphract's knuckle dragging hardpoints, Dragon's arm hardpoints low as well. Please show me a map where that's not a hindrance, and I love piloting my Dragons, so I know what I am talking about.

Formosa The God, on 04 August 2017 - 12:51 AM, said:

Sure when playing pugs, who don't know how to use these weapons properly anyway, but any decent cw player for is, is going to use the best mechs for the weight, that's battlemasters etc.

As a clan player when dropping against a good team all I ever is is battlemasters, griffins, marauders and these days, warhammers, which is my favourite is mech.

For the love of god, please use capital letters when talking about the Inner Sphere. This is painful to read.

Edited by Shinichi Yamamoto, 04 August 2017 - 04:21 AM.

[Luminis]

DrxAbstract, on 03 August 2017 - 11:54 PM, said:

I'm all for Clan and IS having 250 Tons a piece in FW (Forget 240 vs. 250), but suggesting a tonnage variation that has existed for months is responsible for recent occurrences in FW is an irresponsible knee-jerk scapegoating reaction that does more harm than good.

Maybe there was a recent event of some sort that impacted the IS' performance, which now results in the tonnage bonus being a little too high? Dunno, might be possible.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

DrxAbstract, on 03 August 2017 - 11:54 PM, said:

I'm all for Clan and IS having 250 Tons a piece in FW (Forget 240 vs. 250), but suggesting a tonnage variation that has existed for months is responsible for recent occurrences in FW is an irresponsible knee-jerk scapegoating reaction that does more harm than good.

the tonnage advantage the last couple seasons was PGI's way (without adding additional quirks to IS mechs) of closing the gap with the old tech we had up until civil war. New tech is the game-changer and thus the tonnage advantage (which the IS did need...although the good teams still won) is causing imbalance...they aren't going to remove the new tech...quirk nerfs would be an option (but would effect other modes)....so tonnage is the obvious choice. Especially as it seemed to get the results PGI wanted when they pulled that lever the last couple of seasons. So, while new tech is the catalyst for recent events (especially Merc unit movements) IS just doesn't need the same level of tonnage help in PGI's eyes and it is the easiest thing to change. Thus, the nerf

[Sucy Manbavaran]

DrxAbstract, on 04 August 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

The Clan range advantage is far from being a myth. You have to take specific variants of specific IS Mechs, which for some of them is all they have going for them, to approach the weapon performance aspects of Clan Weapons that ALL Clan Mechs can utilize, and this is completely absent considerations like 4 Ton, 1 Slot Clan ER Larges, 6 Ton 2 Slot Clan ER PPCs and 12 Ton Gauss Rifles.

The more 'optimized' you get, the less face time you see and more apparent the Clan weapon efficiency becomes.

Then play Clan ... when they'll see on the MightyData -80% usage of TopTrashISMech, they'll buff them.
It's because guys like you exist we must play with Stupid SRM+A Spread // Trash brawling capacity on 98% ClanMech.

if long range was not the"only" viable strat (and SURE you can go 5SRM6+A on a summoner, AND ? if you can do it doesn't mean it'll be effective, same thing for 14E Hardpoint Nova) on 98% of clan mech cause of stupid ****** nerf, MAYBE you'll see something else ... but :
- SRM Trash Spread
- LBX Trash Spread
- C-AC > useless compare to IS
- CUAC > can be use, cause everything else is trash
- CGauss > Better than IS, i'm just waiting to put 2 of them on something else than Assault and SlugGyr
- Lazor > the fatter they are, the most brainless the target must be if you wanna put dmg
- CLRM > They are LRM, then it's trash
- ATM > So damn hot and fat, you can't use them cause so many Omni are HardLock on Space
- C-ERPPC > usable, but it's the only weap clan use since 2/3 years ... boring

So nerf long range, Buff Short range, buff Durability and let's play CloseCombat. Maybe you'll stop crying > Oh no i can't reach this TBR cause he play 4 CERLL and i can't get cover ...

Edited by Sucy Manbavaran, 04 August 2017 - 06:55 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Formosa The God, on 03 August 2017 - 11:54 PM, said:

just pointing out that these optimised builds mean that clan range advantage is a myth the more optimised you get.

Sure, if you ignore everything else. No is one is trying to say the IS can't match range, THEY ARE trying to say you can't match the Clan effectiveness AT that range. Two different ideas and one matters more.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Formosa The God, on 04 August 2017 - 12:51 AM, said:

Sure when playing pugs, who don't know how to use these weapons properly anyway, but any decent cw player for is, is going to use the best mechs for the weight, that's battlemasters etc.

"Any decent CW player"

That made me giggle.

[Mcgral18]

Maxor, on 03 August 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

I agree the tech pendulum has swung the other way (not a good thing!) but its really just 2 weapons that give IS an edge.
RACs because of it's damage mixed with it's ******** crit capability on an exposed mech and MRMs because many IS players are dropping SRMs for their point blank alpha.

I've tried both pieces of tech and I really like them but they still need to be tweaked. RAC 2s need to jam faster when you hit the red and RACs overall need a crit reduction while MRMs just need a minimum distance like 120-ish.

MRMs not having a minimum distance is a tad funny given RLs got one since the devs were worried about point blank alpha.

I'm glad they are finally lowering the tonnage disparity but overall though in FP we Clans just need to get our **** together before we lose the season in 3 days (atleast IS will have set a record then...).

But tech imbalance aside the OP brings up a greater issue with FP most people have given up on arguing and that is Mercenary population swings and FP not being about factions.

Its too easy to just switch sides every week as a merc unit. Not to mention on average mercs actually get more rewards than Loyalists. Doing some rough estimates based on average win rewards of merc vs loyalist. By the time either them finish their respective faction rep tree the merc ends with potentially 400 million more c-bills.

If the devs restricted merc units a bit more and gave reasons to actually be Loyalists you'd prolly see more units actually stay with a certain faction. With the last Tukayyid event we saw the same thing half way through. Droves of player abandoned the IS side to join the winning Clans. Ideally for an event like this you shouldn't even be able to switch sides otherwise people will just game the system while ******* over those that stay with the losing team.

My suggestion is to make Merc contracts 2 weeks to a month long so units need to think ahead of time on who they will support and prevent many people from gaming the system by switching sides half way through an event.

This is coming from someone who is a clan merc and just tired of seeing whole units flip flop mid event.

I'm seeing a theme here...complaining about some of the worst FutureTech™ items, and saying Clams are worse?


Someone check his leaderboard! I smell Starch

[Zergling]

Mcgral18, on 04 August 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

I'm seeing a theme here...complaining about some of the worst FutureTech™ items, and saying Clams are worse?


Someone check his leaderboard! I smell Starch

Yup, smells starchy.

Like really, RACs and MRMs nowhere near need nerfs; they are some of the worst new weapons to be added, up there with the Light and Heavy Gauss for sheer badness.

Edited by Zergling, 04 August 2017 - 11:11 PM.