62 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

I keep seeing people complaing about Clan/IS balance.. Often the ideas are about making weapons, tonnage, heat Equal..


So what about just making IS tougher? more armor, Keep STD structure,. Bonus, Keep STD bonus... Why not really make the mechs play different.

I want tanks, I want strikers.. So why not go with Faction sides, and fit them into niches?

[Wattila]

Asymmetric balance is hard. Also, gank > tank.

[MNML86]

Asymmetric balance has been requested many times. Still nothing.

E.g. 10 Clanners vs 12 IS. Both sides unnerfed.

[Alexander of Macedon]

PGI has had how many years failing to even nail parity and you expect them to manage effective asymmetric balance? That's difficult even in a context like a RTS where individual unit viability isn't such an overriding concern. Doubly so in a shooter where equipment choice does more than change TTK by fractions of a second.

[Aim64C]

The simple answer to all of this is "because that's not the way it is."

Even if you want to go per the lore - the Clan 'mechs were generally tougher than their Inner Sphere counterparts. In some cases, yes, they were more thinly armored - but considering CASE was automatic for clans and a few other survival advantages - clan mechs often survived damage and situations that would have destroyed the Inner Sphere mechs.

Now, we can look beyond that and question whether or not we should do this for the sake of gameplay... but Inner Sphere mechs already get numerous structure and armor bonuses on top of the skill tree system. That makes them moderately playable in the face of overwhelming firepower, but the classic 'tank' vs 'dps' balance doesn't work as well when subcomponent destruction is the name of the game.

Then this also bleeds over into issues with 'splat' weapons - LBXs, Missiles, and other weapons with general spread. Many of these are already considered 'only if you can't carry more pinpoint' weapon selections. Buffing each individual armor component of the IS to make Clan laser vomit less effective pretty much makes 'splat' weapons useless against Inner Sphere 'mechs.

The main balance problem between the IS and Clans in MWO is that it's impossible to convey two advantages the Inner Sphere could leverage in the lore:

Home Field. The IS was often fighting within its own supply lines and it was difficult for the Clans, as an invasion force, to impose embargoes. Even resistance forces within 'occupied' territory had considerably greater access to resupply than their Clan opponents. The Inner Sphere could field larger numbers, replace losses, and leverage ammunition supplies as well as non-mech support.

Cost-effectiveness. The Inner Sphere was in the middle of a techno-industrial renaissance' when the Clans invaded. The inner sphere could more affordably produce their technology and its proliferation was expanding. Where the Clans had limited production and a high transportation burden, the Inner Sphere had established trade networks and production to leverage the economic advantage. For the same investment of resources the Inner Sphere could often place more armor, weapons, and equipment onto the battlefield than their Clan opposition.

These were the key advantages the Inner Sphere had... but these are impossible to replicate in a tournament arena shooter.

[Mystere]

Aim64C, on 05 August 2017 - 06:57 PM, said:

These were the key advantages the Inner Sphere had... but these are impossible to replicate in a tournament arena shooter.

And therein lies the problem. MWO should not have been a "tournament arena shooter". Sadly, a number of people have severe delusions of eSports grandeur.

Edited by Mystere, 05 August 2017 - 07:42 PM.

[MNML86]

Mystere, on 05 August 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

And therein lies the problem. MWO should not have been a "tournament arena shooter". Sadly, a number of people have severe delusions of eSports grandeur.

Don't forget GREED

[LordNothing]

Wattila, on 05 August 2017 - 06:25 PM, said:

Asymmetric balance is hard. Also, gank > tank.

tanking is a damn myth. thats just an excuse for people to hide behind assault mechs, let them die, and then getting crippled mechs to farm kills on. they are better used on a firing line that presents multiple targets. then they can stay alive long enough to have a proportional impact on the battlefield.

Edited by LordNothing, 05 August 2017 - 08:27 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Uh, but IS is tankier? Look at mechs like the marauder. Clans have more damage on paper (Except for SRMs) but their damage spreads more and is a lot less effective. Meanwhile most clan mechs are gimped in terms of tonnage (summonner, mist lynx, ice ferret, etc) and have easy to single out CT/side torsos.

[El Bandito]

I bet far more people prefer to be the damage dealer than to be the tank. Who can say no to frequent 3000 damage CW matches as the Clan side, should IS becomes tankier? Tanking doesn't reward anything.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 August 2017 - 10:52 PM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Can I be the healer?

[Shifty McSwift]

Because a game of rock vs paper probably gets old after the first or second run through.

[Thorn Hallis]

On a more serious note: We should be happy that the role warfare pillar wasn't more then hot air. Otherwise we might have ended with some sort of MOBA.

[Jay Leon Hart]

El Bandito, on 05 August 2017 - 10:51 PM, said:

I bet far more people prefer to be the damage dealer than to be the tank.

Agreed.

Source - the severe lack of tanks and "support" (healers/buffers/debuffers/CCers) in every MMORPG I have ever played.

Thorn Hallis, on 06 August 2017 - 12:46 AM, said:

On a more serious note: We should be happy that the role warfare pillar wasn't more then hot air. Otherwise we might have ended with some sort of MOBA.

Good point! Guardians are rather rare in Smite... or they were, when I played it regularly.

[HGAK47]

You want my Spider 5V to have less "gank" and more "tank"? LOL Sure im up for that, so you want me to have just one laser now?

Damn well better give me +100 jump jets and +100 armour to compensate

[johnwolf]

Mystere, on 05 August 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

And therein lies the problem. MWO should not have been a "tournament arena shooter". Sadly, a number of people have severe delusions of eSports grandeur.

This isn't a "tournament arena shooter", Because it's NOTHING like Quake or Unreal Tournament. Heck, it isn't even a twitch shooter like CoD. Please, it's an Arcade Mechsim like WoT, and it always WAS an Arcade MechSim.

[Mystere]

johnwolf, on 06 August 2017 - 06:48 AM, said:

This isn't a "tournament arena shooter", Because it's NOTHING like Quake or Unreal Tournament. Heck, it isn't even a twitch shooter like CoD. Please, it's an Arcade Mechsim like WoT, and it always WAS an Arcade MechSim.

But that seems to be the goal right now, no matter how extremely delusional it may look.

Edited by Mystere, 06 August 2017 - 06:59 AM.

[Signal27]

MNML86, on 05 August 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

Asymmetric balance has been requested many times. Still nothing.

E.g. 10 Clanners vs 12 IS. Both sides unnerfed.

Your example was actually directly addressed by Russ: A flat-out refusal. So... that's SOMETHING, I guess.

[Mystere]

Signal27, on 06 August 2017 - 07:00 AM, said:

Your example was actually directly addressed by Russ: A flat-out refusal. So... that's SOMETHING, I guess.

I see that as a glaring admission of their capabilities, and by that I mean their lack of it. Heck, after 5 years, this game still reeks of MVP. Best of all, the "Civil War" release did not disappoint one bit.

Edited by Mystere, 06 August 2017 - 07:29 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Mystere, on 05 August 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

And therein lies the problem. MWO should not have been a "tournament arena shooter". Sadly, a number of people have severe delusions of eSports grandeur.

Agreed. A game has to be build from the ground up to be a tournament arena shooter and not use a existing IP with existing rulesets that aren't comparable with the requirements of a tournament arena shooter. This is one of the reasons PGI lost so much of the existing IP fanbase.

PGI needed/needs to focus on fun first, balance second.