90 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

Damn people are dense.



I don't pay attention to what PUGs bring unless its funny/really bad. There are still Comp players running Guass/PPCs. I've seen them, but that's hardly surprising. I've seen Comp players running Gauss Vomit for years even when it wasn't tippity top. The difference between the high end builds isn't that vast and the Supernova can't run Gauss Vomit on any of its chassis anyway so really we're just knit picking a technicality of the meta not relevant to the chassis I'm talking about.

No, i'm afraid the pot is calling the kettle black here. PPC gauss is not "meta" anymore, you are being dense if you haven't discovered that. This has been the case (with the exception of the Night Gyr) since the skill tree. Since the PPC/Gauss nerf, there is no question.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

I don't pay attention to what PUGs bring unless its funny/really bad. There are still Comp players running Guass/PPCs. I've seen them, but that's hardly surprising. I've seen Comp players running Gauss Vomit for years even when it wasn't tippity top.

Who are these comp players out of curiosity? Comp players immediately stopped using Gauss Vomit after the death of x2 max range cERMLs and Gauss nerfs that brought in the dakka era so I think you may mistaking some players for serious comp players.

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

The difference between the high end builds isn't that vast and the Supernova can't run Gauss Vomit on any of its chassis anyway so really we're just knit picking a technicality of the meta not relevant to the chassis I'm talking about.

Boiler can run Gauss Vomit, it has 2B and 3E, it just can't run it as well as others because it relies on Heavy Lasers to supplement the alpha to replicate damage potential of other mechs (or you could just run 2 LPL/1 ERML).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 August 2017 - 11:43 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

The Bandit does not concern himself with the disappointment of others due to how cool he is...



Actually, the position of the ballistics look ok to me. They may not be sniper level high, however they look high enough to normally clear terrain. As long as they aren't knuckle-dragger height (like the Cataphract), I normally don't have too much of a problem.

[Lord0fHats]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 August 2017 - 11:35 AM, said:

This has been the case (with the exception of the Night Gyr) since the skill tree.

"It's not Meta except when it is." It was certainly meta when the mech released, so going back to the original topic of the thread it's still silly for PGI to just now be worried about Heroes being best in class, especially when the Hero in question is still a Maddog.

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Who are these comp players out of curiosity.

I'm trapped in a Tier I don't belong in and play group que with Tenore whom the matchmaker seems to have a vendetta against cause it just loves throwing him opposite comp teams (and by extension me). I can't possibly remember specific names from the probably 100+ quick play games I've played in the last two weeks. What I do remember is being wrecked by a pair of Gauss/PPC Night Gyrs with SJR tags slapped on them just last week. Though I don't see SJR in Group que much anymore. I imagine cause of the new comp mode.

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you may mistaking some players for serious comp players.

Possibly, but then I've seen 228 and your own Steel Jags in the past two weeks running PPC/Gauss mechs in quick play so I think you're being hyperbolic. You're seriously going to sit there and deny anyone runs something just cause it's not the tip top of the power pole anymore? Come on. Even on the hyper specific level you guys have chosen to kit pick that statement you're being silly.

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Boiler can run Gauss Vomit, it has 2B and 3E, it just can't run it as well as others because it relies on Heavy Lasers to supplement the alpha to replicate damage potential of other mechs (or you could just run 2 LPL/1 ERML).

Moving aside from the Guass/PPC stuff, that just goes right back around to the original point.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Brawler Boiler is best Boiler. If you're not schooling brawl Scorches, you're doing it wrong

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

What I do remember is being wrecked by a pair of Gauss/PPC Night Gyrs with SJR tags slapped on them just last week. Though I don't see SJR in Group que much anymore. I imagine cause of the new comp mode.

Possibly, but then I've seen 228 and your own Steel Jags in the past two weeks running PPC/Gauss mechs in quick play so I think you're being hyperbolic.

Only one of us runs the Night Gyr anymore and it was for testing (and that is Mag). So me thinks you are the one being hyperbolic. Outside of the Night Gyr Jager is the only one running Gauss/PPCs and he is running it on the Timber. Even then, it isn't what we take into comp mode so again, Gauss/PPCs aren't meta anymore. Also, be wary of lumping 228 together as it is a absurdly large unit with a wide gap between the low end and top end of skill.

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

Moving aside from the Guass/PPC stuff, that just goes right back around to the original point.

Except the Boiler still isn't necessarily the best variant because as I said, it isn't as good at Gauss vomit as other assaults which means the 1 with 6 ERML and 2 LPL (or 2 HLL) is still competitive. The Boiler also suffers from being asym as well.

[Lord0fHats]

Jay Leon Hart, on 08 August 2017 - 12:12 PM, said:

Brawler Boiler is best Boiler. If you're not schooling brawl Scorches, you're doing it wrong

For what its worth, my Boiler is currently set up for brawl because I find twin LBX20s to be awesome funsies

Though I think I have more fun in my Scorch just cause it runs faster Though I do like Jump Jets... but I also like not running at King Crab speeds.

[Lord0fHats]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 August 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

Only one of us runs the Night Gyr anymore and it was for testing (and that is Mag). So me thinks you are the one being hyperbolic.

There's nothing hyperbolic about the statement "I saw some SJR guys in PPC/Gauss" Night Gyrs. i mean at worst I'm lying, which feel free to think if you want, but that's not what the word hyperbolic means.

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Even then, it isn't what we take into comp mode so again,

I don't pretend to know what comp teams take into comp mode cause I'm not there and probably never will be cause I imagine I'd only be useful as a bullet shield (and probably not a very good one cause my life expectancy drops like a rock whenever units with any sense are around).

But then the meta in comp mode isn't the same as the meta in quick play, now is it?

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Except e Boiler still isn't necessarily the best variant because as I said,

I was unaware there was another Supernova with Ballistic hard points

[Gas Guzzler]

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

"It's not Meta except when it is." It was certainly meta when the mech released, so going back to the original topic of the thread it's still silly for PGI to just now be worried about Heroes being best in class, especially when the Hero in question is still a Maddog.

Yeah, the Night Gyr had the perfect combo of available tonnage, reasonable high weapons, and JJs to make the PPFLD worth it, but thats a very specific role on one mech, and as far as quick play goes, you are far better off in something with more DPS, you will consistently do better. So yeah, not meta.

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

There's nothing hyperbolic about the statement "I saw some SJR guys in PPC/Gauss" Night Gyrs. i mean at worst I'm lying, which feel free to think if you want, but that's not what the word hyperbolic means.



I don't pretend to know what comp teams take into comp mode cause I'm not there and probably never will be cause I imagine I'd only be useful as a bullet shield (and probably not a very good one cause my life expectancy drops like a rock whenever units with any sense are around).

But then the meta in comp mode isn't the same as the meta in quick play, now is it?



I was unaware there was another Supernova with Ballistic hard points

Dude, you think comp players ONLY bring meta mechs in quick play??? LOL. Just because a comp player brings something in quick play doesn't mean its meta.

He meant that the Boiler isn't the best variant. The -1 and -C are the best.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

There's nothing hyperbolic about the statement "I saw some SJR guys in PPC/Gauss" Night Gyrs. i mean at worst I'm lying, which feel free to think if you want, but that's not what the word hyperbolic means.

You act like because some SJR guys took them though that automatically means they are meta. You are using the proof that we took one as defense that Gauss/PPCs are meta when that is but a fraction of what SJR actually uses (and that was probably just testing to see if it still works or not).

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

But then the meta in comp mode isn't the same as the meta in quick play, now is it?

I don't think you understand the point, the meta in comp mode will eventually become the meta in quick play. Gauss/PPCs and poptarts were the meta in the 2016 WC, guess what finally took a hold of the meta in quick play after like 6 months of it being introduced in comp? Gauss/PPCs and poptarts. Before that, it was dakka and laser vomit, same thing, it was in comp first and then it slowly trickled down to quick play. There are always some exceptions but a majority of the meta in comp, is meta in quick play.

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

I was unaware there was another Supernova with Ballistic hard points

Just because no other Supernova can run Gauss vomit does not mean the Boiler is automatically the best Supernova. Gauss vomit and laser vomit compete for the same space and there is a turning point at which Gauss Vomit is actually better which I don't think the Boiler quite crosses (plus its asym which is an automatic minus).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 August 2017 - 12:32 PM.

[Lord0fHats]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 August 2017 - 12:27 PM, said:

Dude, you think comp players ONLY bring meta mechs in quick play???

Said nothing of the sort, and you're saying I'm the dense one? Half my mechbay is filled with stupid and dumb builds just because I'm either too cheap to change them or I derive some kind of enjoyment from them. I imagine that's the same for a lot of people.

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Just because a comp player brings something in quick play doesn't mean its meta.

I'm amazed that as the non-comp player, I'm the one who has to point out that "meta" is fluid and includes all options, not just the powerful ones.

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He meant that the Boiler isn't the best variant. The -1 and -C are the best.

That is patently not what he said.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 August 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

You act like because some SJR guys took them though that automatically means they are meta.

Said nothing of the sort. I said I'd seen it, in response to the rather silly statement that "no comp player runs it" which was immediately followed by an admission that there are comp players running it.

You both seem to be assuming things I'm not saying but then you've been doing that since this entire sidetrack got started.

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I don't think you understand the point, the meta in comp mode will eventually become the meta in quick play.

This hasn't and never will be true, simply because if I had to put a number on it I'd conservative say that 50% of the player base actively hates the very idea of meta and purposefully avoids running builds you'd find on places like Metamechs. In QP that number is probably even higher as more and more players find themselves filtered gradually up into T1. You'll find things running around in QP that would never run in Comp, and bizarrely because of that you can get away with things in QP you'd never be able to get away with in Comp.

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Just because no other Supernova can run Gauss vomit does not mean the Boiler is automatically the best Supernova. Gauss vomit and laser vomit compete for the same space and there is a turning point at which Gauss Vomit is actually better which I don't think the Boiler quite crosses (plus its asym which is an automatic minus).

Again setting aside that debate and returning to the original point, it's still silly for PGI to be worried about a hero Maddog becoming best in chassis, cause when the Supernova came out that's what it was (you can still find it listed as the only Supernova in T1 on Metamechs' Meta list which is still only updated to the Supernova patch back in March). And I didn't even mention the Black Widow, Cyclops hero whose name I can't spell, Oxide, Hugin, Top Dog, and all the other hero variants that have at some point or another been blatantly the best in their chassis. Oh and the Ember. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

Which is really just the other reason it's silly, cause even if it did end up best in chassis it probably wouldn't stay that way.

Edited by Lord0fHats, 08 August 2017 - 01:15 PM.

[Grus]

El Bandito, on 06 August 2017 - 06:34 AM, said:

Nah, EBJ-A RT ballistic mount already shows us what the other side would look like. Super high mounted.

Dual uac10 and Laz arms for hl's... mmm smells like a winner.

[MadRover]

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 03:35 AM, said:

Tracking targets isn't anything to write home about when you're guns are at the bottom of your torso.

Sure. Until you find someone who can not only move but fire all the weapons in the arms at you and remain accurate. You have to turn the EBJ which lowers your ability to fine tune your aim on the move without having to twist the torso.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

Said nothing of the sort. I said I'd seen it, in response to the rather silly statement that "no comp player runs it" which was immediately followed by an admission that there are comp players running it.

Let me qualify that for you then, because comp players run stupid crap too in quick play. Comp players do not run it in a serious match. Just because you see a comp player take something does not mean it is meta, however comp players are more likely to know the current meta than gen pop are. What you see in comp queue though is a great indication however.

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

You'll find things running around in QP that would never run in Comp, and bizarrely because of that you can get away with things in QP you'd never be able to get away with in Comp.

Sure, harassers and LRMs are much more viable in QP than in comp, doesn't mean that what is meta in comp isn't meta in QP. The Kodiak 3 was one of the best mechs in comp AND QP and it is far from an isolated incident. Just because you can get away with more in QP doesn't mean that mechs that are optimal are suddenly less optimal than the competition.

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

And I didn't even mention the Black Widow, Cyclops hero whose name I can't spell, Oxide, Hugin, Top Dog, and all the other hero variants that have at some point or another been blatantly the best in their chassis. Oh and the Ember. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

Which is really just the other reason it's silly, cause even if it did end up best in chassis it probably wouldn't stay that way.

Having something be P2W even if temporary is bad business. Power should never be able to be bought with money, no matter whether it is only for a time or not.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 August 2017 - 01:34 PM.

[Lord0fHats]

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Sure, harassers and LRMs are much more viable in QP than in comp, doesn't mean that what is meta in comp isn't meta in QP.

Still assuming things I didn't say.

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Having something be P2W even if temporary is bad business. Power should never be able to be bought with money, no matter whether it is only for a time or not.

We're talking about a Maddog. Even if best in chassis, it wouldn't be pay to win. I don't even think we can qualify some of the more egregious examples like the Black Widow as pay to win, simply because it's not like there are no other mechs that can match and beat the Black Widow that aren't pay walled.

If we're talking about PGI's annoying and unlikable habit of taking the most interesting variants and locking them as money only heroes or in a reinforcement pack, sure that's annoying and kind of a douche move, but within the broader context of the game it's not remotely pay to win. Talk about hyperbole right there.

Edited by Lord0fHats, 08 August 2017 - 01:54 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

Still assuming things I didn't say.

You said that because there are a bunch of anti-meta in QP that some things work in QP that don't work in comp. That's true, but what's good in comp becomes better as well which is the point I was trying to make. Yes other lesser or solid builds do benefit from the potato diet in QP, but so do meta comp builds. In other words, what is meta in comp is for the most part, still the meta in QP.

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

We're talking about a Maddog. Even if best in chassis, it wouldn't be pay to win. I don't even think we can qualify some of the more egregious examples like the Black Widow as pay to win, simply because it's not like there are no other mechs that can match and beat the Black Widow that aren't pay walled.

I don't agree that the Mad Dog will be P2W in the context of it being better than other heavies, but it will be better than any ballistic Mad Dog you can do with only c-bills and much like the issue with the Purifier, that is a problem imo. Even having the best of a chassis be a hero is problematic because of how people play this game (people get attached to a specific chassis). Talk about assuming things.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 August 2017 - 02:07 PM.

[Lord0fHats]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 August 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

You said that because there are a bunch of anti-meta in QP that some things work in QP that don't work in comp.

Yes.

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In other words, what is meta in comp is for the most part, still the meta in QP.

I didn't challenge this. I challenged that the comp meta becomes the QP meta. I took you as saying that they become equivalent. If that is not what you meant then we're just quibbling over semantics.

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I don't agree that the Mad Dog will be P2W in the context of it being better than other heavies, but it will be better than any ballistic Mad Dog you can do with only c-bills and much like the issue with the Purifier, that is a problem imo.

I think it's a problem, but only as a matter of limiting player choice (i.e. fun). It's not a win card by any margin. As useful as a Purifier is, it's still a Kit Fox and as neat as torso ballistics are for the Bandit its still a Maddog.

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Even having the best of a chassis be a hero is problematic because of how people play this game (people get attached to a specific chassis).

They do but that's a personal choice on the part of players, not something the game should really be balanced around. EDIT: Well actually I'd say it's a problem born of how the old Mastery system worked. People needed 3 copies of a mech to get anywhere so we ended up getting attached to chassis' instead of variants/load outs. Or maybe that's all just a hold over from Tabletop which I never played. I vote we just blame PGI

Edited by Lord0fHats, 08 August 2017 - 02:32 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

I didn't challenge this. I challenged that the comp meta becomes the QP meta. I took you as saying that they become equivalent. If that is not what you meant then we're just quibbling over semantics.

They aren't equivalent, that's not really what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say the comp meta takes forever for people to pick up on QP as evidence by the cries about the "meta shift" to PPC/Gauss and poptarts 6-8 months after the meta had already shifted. Basically it takes QP forever to pick up on meta shifts.

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

I think it's a problem, but only as a matter of limiting player choice (i.e. fun). It's not a win card by any margin. As useful as a Purifier is, it's still a Kit Fox and as neat as torso ballistics are for the Bandit its still a Maddog.

Win cards even with respect to a specific chassis is a bad precedent and has a similar effect as a hero or paywalled mech that is OP across the spectrum, they are both bad for business and tend to aggravate a player base.

[MadRover]

Lord0fHats, on 08 August 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

Yes.



I didn't challenge this. I challenged that the comp meta becomes the QP meta. I took you as saying that they become equivalent. If that is not what you meant then we're just quibbling over semantics.



I think it's a problem, but only as a matter of limiting player choice (i.e. fun). It's not a win card by any margin. As useful as a Purifier is, it's still a Kit Fox and as neat as torso ballistics are for the Bandit its still a Maddog.



They do but that's a personal choice on the part of players, not something the game should really be balanced around. EDIT: Well actually I'd say it's a problem born of how the old Mastery system worked. People needed 3 copies of a mech to get anywhere so we ended up getting attached to chassis' instead of variants/load outs. Or maybe that's all just a hold over from Tabletop which I never played. I vote we just blame PGI

I vote we blame PGI and the players

[Lord0fHats]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 August 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

Win cards even with respect to a specific chassis is a bad precedent

It's a precedent that was broken ages ago though, and frankly it hasn't really happened again in awhile. The Oxide was the last mech that qualified as "OP across the spectrum" and that was killed with the rescale that killed all the Jenners as I'm aware. Since then while heroes might still end up best in chassis (or nebulously tied with 1-2 other of their siblings which I find more common), they haven't been OP across the spectrum since... Damn awhile. PGI learned their lesson I think from that little era between the rise of the Ember and the final demise of Oxide but now I think they're being too conservative in a lot of cases. Would the Bandit be so broke if it got to have ballistic mounts on the yellow sections here?



The Red I think would actually be pretty broken, cause even the EBJ and Jager as dual gauss heavies have to reveal good chunks of their torsos just because of cockpit locations. A certain horror becomes apparent when you combine the Maddogs high up cockpit with the potention for eye level Gauss rifles

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to aggravate a player base.

Honestly just about everything seems to aggravate the MWO player base XD

MadRover, on 08 August 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

I vote we blame PGI and the players

We got a daring one here

Edited by Lord0fHats, 08 August 2017 - 02:54 PM.