38 replies to this topic

[Xorkrath]

Hello everyone. I've got a potato question for you guys.

I've tried my best to understand the workings and roles of most weapon systems. But I'm having a hard time understanding ballistics. For the purposes of this conversation, please note I am referring to the clan weaponry.

So hear me out on this. AC weapons and UAC are almost identical in stats (exceptions noted). But the differences are infinitesimal in nature, nonexistent in practice, and the UAC take up one slot less so they're slightly easier to equip.

I've paid attention to the enemy info readouts on games I've played (yes I know I haven't played much lately, but in general when I have been playing), but I don't think I've ever seen someone equip standard C-AC## over C-UAC## in a clan mech. I've tried to do so a couple of times just for kicks, but everything I see points to UAC just being flat out better in every category.

But I'm just a tier 3 potato trying to learn the game better. So please, tell me what I'm missing. What's the point of AC weapons? I mean, I'd certainly consider it a good balance point if the C-AC weapons only fired one slug instead of 3-4 at a time. Then you could argue a tradeoff for single slug pinpoint damage, verses burst damage with the UAC. That'd be interesting. But barring that, I don't see any reasons for C-AC## to exist.

While we're at it, I have a secondary question on this topic. I've also tried my darndest to understand LBX. I love the idea, I've played with them often, but stat for stat, I don't see a real reason to use them over UAC either. I used to run a few designs with LBX, then found that changing to UAC instantly improved my game. Someone in another thread mentioned the pellet spread and crit chance, and that's all well and good, but that's a lot of tonnage just to have a slightly better chance at damaging a component you'd just as easily destroy if the damage were pinpoint via a slug round anyway.

So please help this potato learn. Impart your wisdom so I don't drag down your team with a laughable loadout (again).

[FupDup]

You've figured out the secret of ACs. They all perform the same basic role of low-heat DPS (except maybe the AC/20, that one is a gutpuncher), so it's just a matter of finding which ones complete that role the best. UACs get more potential DPS for only small weight/slot increases on the IS side and no extra costs at all on the Clan side, so they tend to be outright better.

LBX are just poop for the most part, unless you either boat them up the wazoo or use the Clan LB 20-X on an SRM brawler build.

Edited by FupDup, 07 August 2017 - 12:37 PM.

[Rovertoo]

UACs jam for a long time if you double shoot, so theres that. Regular ACs are maybe a tad worse for more consistancy really.

LBXs are just fun. And awesome. I love them.

[Brain Cancer]

Clan "AC" 's were a placeholder meant to be removed when PGI added the ammo switching that would allow LB-X's to fire solid and cluster ammo.

PGI never managed that level of programming mastery, leaving the CAC in as a vestigal weapon that doesn't actually exist in tabletop. Use a UAC instead. Even if they're not double tapped, they're still better.

IS AC's on the other hand are a bit more variety, especially the UAC/10-20 vs standard AC/10-20. There's actually good reasons to consider standard vs Ultra then.

[El Bandito]

UACs still jam too often for my taste. I do not like to equip them on IS mechs that have no jam reduction quirks.

[Wattila]

El Bandito, on 07 August 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

UACs still jam too often for my taste. I do not like to equip them on IS mechs that have no jam reduction quirks.

UAC 2/5 jams are quite short, though. You'll still be way ahead in DPS even with the jams. The 10s and 20s are fair game, those jam times are brutal.

[Jun Watarase]

UAC jam times wouldnt be so bad if you didnt have to wait for them to reload as well. With RACs, you can simply keep firing till it jams then duck behind cover because when it unjams, the bar starts from zero again. UACs have to unjam AND wait for the bar to empty.

[MadRover]

To answer LBX think of them as shotguns. There true effective range is 350m and less because the spread will be very nice and compact.

[Brain Cancer]

Jun Watarase, on 07 August 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

UAC jam times wouldnt be so bad if you didnt have to wait for them to reload as well. With RACs, you can simply keep firing till it jams then duck behind cover because when it unjams, the bar starts from zero again. UACs have to unjam AND wait for the bar to empty.

Incidentally, that also reflects the fact that RACs were better at unjamming than UAC's (heck, in TT you can't unjam a UAC, period without a repair job, but RAC jams are doable in combat.)

Ultras, in-lore weren't originally designed to double-tap, but pilots discovered rapidly that the better built gun could push it's firing tolerance to much higher levels (with a bit of spray) and get away with it most of the time. Even a standard AC can actually pull it off, but with a much greater failure rate. RACs are specifically designed to dump large amounts of ammo on a target at once, and even if the strain causes an ammo belt fault, it has built in feed clearing machinery to get the weapon back online.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Brain Cancer, on 07 August 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

Clan "AC" 's were a placeholder meant to be removed when PGI added the ammo switching that would allow LB-X's to fire solid and cluster ammo.

PGI never managed that level of programming mastery, leaving the CAC in as a vestigal weapon that doesn't actually exist in tabletop. Use a UAC instead. Even if they're not double tapped, they're still better.

IS AC's on the other hand are a bit more variety, especially the UAC/10-20 vs standard AC/10-20. There's actually good reasons to consider standard vs Ultra then.

Yep, exactly this. Clan ACs were never meant to actually be used in game and it is pretty sad that PGI never even attempted to at least make them useful. Many have asked that they be converted to solid slug format so the Clans could have something comparable to IS ACs but nope, for whatever reason, PGI doesn't want to do this. Instead they just left them as broken POS placeholders and I guess hoped that knowledge would be swept under the rug and forgotten.

[Brain Cancer]

Viktor Drake, on 07 August 2017 - 06:57 PM, said:

Yep, exactly this. Clan ACs were never meant to actually be used in game and it is pretty sad that PGI never even attempted to at least make them useful. Many have asked that they be converted to solid slug format so the Clans could have something comparable to IS ACs but nope, for whatever reason, PGI doesn't want to do this. Instead they just left them as broken POS placeholders and I guess hoped that knowledge would be swept under the rug and forgotten.

I'd honestly hoped they would remove and refund the C-bills for these at the Civil War update, much like they did modules. With good riddance.

[FupDup]

I'd like if regular ACs on both sides got a velocity boost. It would help distinguish them from UACs slightly, offering a choice between mid-long range consistent accuracy and burst DPS.

[LordNothing]

i run cacs in my clan mechs all the time. because a lot of the uacs are either jam happy or too hot to be viable in many mixed energy/ballistic builds. before skill trees id have just used an lb of the same class, as the cacs had no module options. now skill nodes will affect the cacs and so there is now no reason to use the lb.

the cac2 in particular is really good because it has the crit chance of the lb2, is ppfld and really cold as well. the uac2 is still pretty strong when supported by jam chance quirks. 8 on an ultraviolet is utter destruction. a pair of cac10s and a pair of cac20s gives the dire a 60 point alpha which can be fired several times without overheating. the cac5 is the only one i dont really use, as the uac5 is usually pretty good and you can usually carry more than one on many builds.

the lbs in general have no real advantage besides giving something to the steering wheel underhive that lets them hit targets with their joystick. is ok for finishing off open mechs, for shooting squirrels, or to hit multiple targets all clustered together. that and it usually runs cool. the is side guns available now are just a big waste of space. id rather just run merms instead. clan lbs are better but i never use them without quirks.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 August 2017 - 07:48 PM.

[HIGH LORD KIT FAWKS THE WATCHFUL]

Personally. I would use regular AC's. Consistent damage, and no jam chance.

[Lucifaust]

Really. There is no point to clan ac.

They should make them fire one round (like IS) to distinguish them from c-uac.

[Khobai]

I agree CACs should fire single bursts.

although they get better range and weigh less so to balance that they should have longer cooldowns and higher heat than their IS equivalents

[HGAK47]

Khobai, on 07 August 2017 - 10:14 PM, said:

I agree CACs should fire single bursts.

although they get better range and weigh less so to balance that they should have longer cooldowns and higher heat than their IS equivalents

How about we reduce the shots per volley for Clan Regular AC`s to the level of the IS UAC`s if PGI do not want to make them single shot? Sort of a trade off, more range than IS Single shot AC`s for the expense of more difficult damage application with the burst fire, just not as much as the Clan UAC`s like now. I would experiement with that a bit?

Edited by HGAK47, 08 August 2017 - 12:21 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

How about we simply get rid of the weapons that were never supposed to be in the game to begin with?

Otherwise, we can move on and start slapping in whatever we like, whenever we like, and forget actual Battletech. I vote for motion wave guns, personally.

[Methanoid]

Only thing i dislike about projectile weapons is the huge tonnage gap between machine guns and the next weapon up, it would be preferable for a lot of light/medium mechs if there was an weapon sat inbetween the 1ton/6ton range so people would use them more otherwise you end up stuck with lower tonnage energy weapons that run hot as hell which sucks the fun out of everything.

[FupDup]

Methanoid, on 08 August 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

Only thing i dislike about projectile weapons is the huge tonnage gap between machine guns and the next weapon up, it would be preferable for a lot of light/medium mechs if there was an weapon sat inbetween the 1ton/6ton range so people would use them more otherwise you end up stuck with lower tonnage energy weapons that run hot as hell which sucks the fun out of everything.

#Light ACs
#Magshots
#Protomech ACs
#AP Gauss