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Opinions On The Annihilator?


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#41 InspectorG

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 09:33 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 07 August 2017 - 04:52 PM, said:


The difference between the Kodiak and Direwolf is that I can easily pick apart both of them because they have big, very easy to target hit boxes that aren't backed up by structure or armor quirks. The Annihilator on the other hand has good frontal hit boxes and it fairly easily spreads damage with just a little torso twisting, kind of like a Marauder. Also the sheer armor and structure you have to burn through is crazy.


*cough*

Those armor/structure buffs are likely to disappear when released for Cbills.

But if people are saying its similar to a Dire, i may get one.

#42 C4NC3R

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 10:15 AM

When you need something to fight "clische".... a BAD ROBOT or ANH-1P another version

#43 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 11:36 AM

View PostInspectorG, on 08 August 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:


*cough*

Those armor/structure buffs are likely to disappear when released for Cbills.

But if people are saying its similar to a Dire, i may get one.


And you are bringing up exactly the reason why I haven't dropped my $20 on getting the Annihilator which is that I am expecting a substantial nerf at some point in the future. People will argue that it doesn't deserve it all day long but as we know from previous experience, PGI won't listen and quite honestly, the Annihilator is just too powerful compared to the other 100 Ton mechs. Personally I would rather see the other 100 ton mechs get buffed back up to make them competitive but PGI and alot of players don't think that way because they want to avoid power creep even at the expense of fun.

#44 The Lighthouse

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 11:54 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 08 August 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:


And you are bringing up exactly the reason why I haven't dropped my $20 on getting the Annihilator which is that I am expecting a substantial nerf at some point in the future. People will argue that it doesn't deserve it all day long but as we know from previous experience, PGI won't listen and quite honestly, the Annihilator is just too powerful compared to the other 100 Ton mechs. Personally I would rather see the other 100 ton mechs get buffed back up to make them competitive but PGI and alot of players don't think that way because they want to avoid power creep even at the expense of fun.


KDK-3, believe or not, is still far more powerful and far more versatile than Annihilator ever wants to be. I'd pick KDK-3 over any Annihilator every single time. UAC 10 + 5 still does wonders thanks to high hardpoints.

Only thing that KDK-3 cannot do is facetank, and you don't want to facetank in this particular game in the first place.

#45 InspectorG

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:27 PM

View PostViktor Drake, on 08 August 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:


And you are bringing up exactly the reason why I haven't dropped my $20 on getting the Annihilator which is that I am expecting a substantial nerf at some point in the future. People will argue that it doesn't deserve it all day long but as we know from previous experience, PGI won't listen and quite honestly, the Annihilator is just too powerful compared to the other 100 Ton mechs. Personally I would rather see the other 100 ton mechs get buffed back up to make them competitive but PGI and alot of players don't think that way because they want to avoid power creep even at the expense of fun.


+1 on buffing other 100 tonners.

Im not sure how stong the Anni will be post Cbill release, ill leave it up to the comp people to figure that out.

I may get the base pack because i enjoy Dires. But, maybe i wont.

#46 C E Dwyer

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:36 PM

It's a bad mech for a poking game, it's a good push mech, people that are timid with it fail, it is a good mech to play if your an over aggressive play style, as you simply can't get into a pushing position to early.

I like it on the whole for fun, in solo queue, due to tonnage limitations it's a terri bad mech for group play

Wouldn't take it into serious play, or FW unless I knew I was going to be defending and in a lance with another four.

#47 invernomuto

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 02:16 PM

View PostInspectorG, on 08 August 2017 - 12:27 PM, said:


+1 on buffing other 100 tonners.

Im not sure how stong the Anni will be post Cbill release, ill leave it up to the comp people to figure that out.

I may get the base pack because i enjoy Dires. But, maybe i wont.


+1 on buffing other 100 tonners either.

If you like Direwolfs, get an Annihilator. It feels like the Dire should be, a very slow but powerful machine that can ignore a reasonable amount of damage. You can face tank and (usually) win.

#48 Zookeeper Dan

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 03:23 PM

I'm having a lot of fun in mine! Like others have said, you need to commit and just assume that you are going to take a lot of damage. Hopefully you can dish out enough to make it worth it!

Make sure you have great heat management! You're too slow to.pull back to cool off and when you stop shooting you die!

Don't hill hump...ever! The arm hardpoints feel like they are in you ankles!

With the arm mounted weapons on the 1E you can only show enemies one side and still have full aiming. Once that armor gets week show your other side. From this angle it's almost impossible to have your CT hit.

It feels like a mobile turret! Play it like that and you will have a fun time!

#49 Zergling

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 12:19 AM

I should point out that the Mad Cat II scored significantly better than the Annihilator in the leaderboard event.

Leaderboard averages:
MCII-1 = 2543
MCII-1(S) = 2478
MCII-2 = 2508
MCII-4 = 2612
MCII-A = 2048
MCII-B = 2396
MCII-DS = 3102
Combined average for Mad Cat II = 2527

ANH-2A = 2471
ANH-2A(S) = 2313
ANH-1A = 2168
ANH-1E = 1701
ANH-1X = 1545
ANH-1P = 1252
ANH-MB = 1793
Combined average for Annihilator = 1892

Even if the ANH-1E, -1X and -1P scores are removed from that combined average, the Annihilator still only averages 2186.
If I remove the Mean Baby too, it only increases to 2317, so it doesn't appear as though the Annihilator is over-performing.


Also, Cougar and Uziel averages:
COU-PRIME = 1263
COU-PRIME(S) = 1366
COU-C = 1247
COU-D = 1127
COU-E = 1154
COU-H = 1349
COU-BA = 1561
Combined average for Cougar = 1295

UZL-3S = 1414
UZL-3S(S) = 1258
UZL-2S = 1492
UZL-3P = 1403
UZL-5P = 668
UZL-6P = 891
UZL-BE = 1462
Combined average for Uziel = 1227


So averages per mech, for sake of comparison with the next figures:
Uziel = 1227
Annihilator = 1892
Cougar = 1295
Mad Cat Mk II = 2527


Averages for the Resistance heroes leaderboard event, which was before Civil War tech was introduced (so no LFEs, IS mechs would be performing worse than now):
King Crab "Kaiju" = 2023
Black Knight "Partisan" = 1554
Mauler "Knock Out" = 1398
Zeus "Skokomish" = 1441
Enforcer "Ghillie" = 1886
Panther "Katana Kat" = 1213
Grasshopper "Mjolnir" = 1765
Urbanmech "K-9" = 2383
Wolfhound "Grinner" = 2155
Crab "Florentine" = 1472


So yeah... Uziel and Cougar are around Panther level badness. Given IS mechs got buffed since then, the Katana Kat would probably score better if that event was held now, so it is fair to say they are worse than the Panther.

Which is just godawful bad; the Uziel and Cougar need some pretty serious buffs.

Edited by Zergling, 09 August 2017 - 12:39 AM.


#50 invernomuto

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 12:31 AM

View PostZergling, on 09 August 2017 - 12:19 AM, said:

The Uziel and Cougar though? Those are godawful bad, and definitely need buffs.


Uziel will get its hit boxes reworked in August patch.
Below the link to Russ' tweet:

https://twitter.com/...112512495992832

I do not see how you can buff the Cougar, it's really too slow for a light in my opinion.

Edited by invernomuto, 09 August 2017 - 12:31 AM.


#51 Zergling

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 12:38 AM

View Postinvernomuto, on 09 August 2017 - 12:31 AM, said:

Uziel will get its hit boxes reworked in August patch.
Below the link to Russ' tweet:

https://twitter.com/...112512495992832

I do not see how you can buff the Cougar, it's really too slow for a light in my opinion.


Uziel needs more than hitbox buffs; it needs some fairly considerable armor/structure quirks. The Cougar needs similar buffs.

#52 Zergling

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 01:10 AM

Just worked out averages for some prior Leaderboards.

Javelin:
JVN-10N = 1817
JVN-10F = 1636
JVN-10P = 1975
JVN-11A = 1388
JVN-11B = 1377
JVN-HT = 1427
Combined average for Javelin = 1603

Roughneck:
RGH-1A = 1666
RGH-1B = 1738
RGH-1C = 1845
RGH-2A = 1533
RGH-3A = 1807
RGH-R = 1882
Combined average for Rouchneck = 1745

Assassin:
ASN-101 = 1674
ASN-21 = 1824
ASN-23 = 1462
ASN-26 = 1096
ASN-27 = 1288
ASN-DD = 1482
Combined average for Assassin = 1471

Supernova:
SNV-1 = 2414
SNV-3 = 2287
SNV-A = 2444
SNV-B = 1617
SNV-C = 1773
SNV-BR = 2502
Combined average for Supernova = 2173


Comparison of averages for chassis:
Mad Cat Mk II = 2527
Supernova = 2173
Annihilator = 1892
Roughneck = 1745
Javelin = 1603
Assassin = 1471
Cougar = 1295
Uziel = 1227


Averages for best variant of each chassis:
MCII-DS = 3102
SNV-BR = 2502
ANH-2A = 2471
JVN-10P = 1975
RGR-R = 1882
ASN-21 = 1824
COU-BA = 1561
UZL-BE = 1462


So yeah, once again Cougar and Uziel are demonstrating that they really are godawful bad.

And Annihilator is performing worse than the Supernova, so it isn't OP or in need of nerfs.

#53 Aggravated Assault Mech

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 02:21 AM

View PostZergling, on 09 August 2017 - 01:10 AM, said:

Just worked out averages for some prior Leaderboards.

So yeah, once again Cougar and Uziel are demonstrating that they really are godawful bad.

And Annihilator is performing worse than the Supernova, so it isn't OP or in need of nerfs.


I don't think it's quite that simple. The fact that this leaderboard event divided players up and dissuaded people from farming really high scores (vs. trying to place on multiple leaderboards) means the scores can't be accurately compared against prior leaderboard events.

Averages were brought down by the number of variants that people simply didn't play in volume. The Uziel is bad and needs buffs, but the majority of people on the Uziel -5P leaderboard didn't even play 10 games- depressing its average below what you would get with a real sample size. More generally this is seen in reinforcement variants often having worse leaderboard scores- SNV-C vs. SNV-1 for instance. If we think of all the participants as existing on a bell curve, then we can imagine the effect number of number of participants has on average score on the leaderboard. If there are only like 150 people that play a given variant (like the UZL-5P), then that leaderboard is a cross-section of the top 50% players. If there are 5000+ participants (like the KDK-3), then the top 75 players are going to be the absolute cream of the crop. It only ends up being a very tiny data point and doesn't really tell you anything about how much better one variant actually is from another.

Fewer people playing = worse average scores. Good rewards and more leaderboards = less incentive to push leaderboard score on specific variants.

Dividing the ANH-2A and the ANH-2A(S) and the MCII and MCII(S) is a direct and practical example of how dividing up the players between more leaderboards drops the average. Take the top 75 from both leaderboards (like how they were combined on earlier leaderboards), and the ANH-2A average jumps up to 2790, the MCII average to 2846. They are both real powerhouses compared to anything else released in the past year- comparatively the MAD-IIC averaged only 2671. However, we can't really make an accurate judgement whether this means they're both better than the MAD-IIC (or Supernova) was on release, because of how influenced it is by the volume of players to pump the average up.

We don't really know how many were purchased and played in the leaderboard event in earnest, so we can't really say if the top 75 players are the top 1% or top 5% or top 50% of the bell curve except in cases like the Uziel where it's clear that you didn't even have to play 10 games to place in the top 75.

While I think we all hope that other 100t mechs get much-needed buffs, recent nerfs suggest that Chris is taking an organic approach, and nerfing variants just because they're overperforming in relation to other variants of the same chassis. Even if the Annihilator isn't as good as the MCII, it wouldn't be surprising if it got nerfed literally just because it's the best 100t mech.

On top of that, there's always the small but nonetheless latent potential for a general nerf to Assaults (probably Heavies as well). Assaults are easily the best-performing class in terms of match score, and with the release of two immensely strong chassis, coexisting in different niches, it would be foolish to think Assaults are in anything other than a golden age right now.

#54 Aggravated Assault Mech

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 02:31 AM

I think it also stands to reason that the simultaneous leaderboards, and the broadening of the competition reduces the match scores, especially in the case of a slow mech like the Annihilator.

Faster mechs also vying for leaderboard positions just snap up damage better, and by the end of the event where you'd often see like 6-7 MCIIs per game I found it really hard to post 1000+ damage. As Kiiyor mentioned (either here or in another leaderboard/annihilator thread), matches moved lightning fast.

It wasn't really the same environment.

#55 Dee Eight

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 03:34 AM

Opinion... less agile than most every kodiak (other than the 3) especially in terms of torso twist, but no need to run an XL engine ever as a 300 Light still leaves lots of tonnage for other things.

#56 Zergling

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 03:57 AM

View PostAggravated Assault Mech, on 09 August 2017 - 02:21 AM, said:


I don't think it's quite that simple. The fact that this leaderboard event divided players up and dissuaded people from farming really high scores (vs. trying to place on multiple leaderboards) means the scores can't be accurately compared against prior leaderboard events.

Averages were brought down by the number of variants that people simply didn't play in volume. The Uziel is bad and needs buffs, but the majority of people on the Uziel -5P leaderboard didn't even play 10 games- depressing its average below what you would get with a real sample size. More generally this is seen in reinforcement variants often having worse leaderboard scores- SNV-C vs. SNV-1 for instance. If we think of all the participants as existing on a bell curve, then we can imagine the effect number of number of participants has on average score on the leaderboard. If there are only like 150 people that play a given variant (like the UZL-5P), then that leaderboard is a cross-section of the top 50% players. If there are 5000+ participants (like the KDK-3), then the top 75 players are going to be the absolute cream of the crop. It only ends up being a very tiny data point and doesn't really tell you anything about how much better one variant actually is from another.

Fewer people playing = worse average scores. Good rewards and more leaderboards = less incentive to push leaderboard score on specific variants.

Dividing the ANH-2A and the ANH-2A(S) and the MCII and MCII(S) is a direct and practical example of how dividing up the players between more leaderboards drops the average. Take the top 75 from both leaderboards (like how they were combined on earlier leaderboards), and the ANH-2A average jumps up to 2790, the MCII average to 2846. They are both real powerhouses compared to anything else released in the past year- comparatively the MAD-IIC averaged only 2671. However, we can't really make an accurate judgement whether this means they're both better than the MAD-IIC (or Supernova) was on release, because of how influenced it is by the volume of players to pump the average up.

We don't really know how many were purchased and played in the leaderboard event in earnest, so we can't really say if the top 75 players are the top 1% or top 5% or top 50% of the bell curve except in cases like the Uziel where it's clear that you didn't even have to play 10 games to place in the top 75.

While I think we all hope that other 100t mechs get much-needed buffs, recent nerfs suggest that Chris is taking an organic approach, and nerfing variants just because they're overperforming in relation to other variants of the same chassis. Even if the Annihilator isn't as good as the MCII, it wouldn't be surprising if it got nerfed literally just because it's the best 100t mech.

On top of that, there's always the small but nonetheless latent potential for a general nerf to Assaults (probably Heavies as well). Assaults are easily the best-performing class in terms of match score, and with the release of two immensely strong chassis, coexisting in different niches, it would be foolish to think Assaults are in anything other than a golden age right now.


Well, if I only average the top 20 scores for the entire chassis, for all 'just released' event leaderboards going back to the Kodiak:

Kodiak = 4643
Mad Cat Mk II = 3868
Cyclops = 3697
Night Gyr = 3620
Marauder IIC = 3495
Annihilator = 3378
Supernova = 3314
Viper = 3008
Linebacker = 2918
Bushwacker = 2825
Roughneck = 2820
Cougar = 2788
Phoenix Hawk = 2718
Huntsman = 2735
Javelin = 2701
Assassin = 2498
Uziel = 2345

It still seems fairly unlikely the Annihilator is overpowered or needs any nerfing. Cougar looks a bit better, but Uziel is still doing horrible.

Edited by Zergling, 09 August 2017 - 03:58 AM.


#57 Aggravated Assault Mech

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 06:44 AM

View PostZergling, on 09 August 2017 - 03:57 AM, said:


Well, if I only average the top 20 scores for the entire chassis, for all 'just released' event leaderboards going back to the Kodiak:

It still seems fairly unlikely the Annihilator is overpowered or needs any nerfing. Cougar looks a bit better, but Uziel is still doing horrible.


Yes I agree. It also bears mentioning that these scores are a product of the best 10 games, so reflective of upper potential in ideal circumstances rather than average performance. Annihilator being so slow will probably have more volatility than a faster mech like the MAD-IIC or Cyclops. Annihilator might have more armor and firepower, but those 10 best games will be offset by more potato games where you're bowled over or left behind in a stomp. IIRC Chris or Russ said something to that effect about the Dire during the last town hall.

Cyclops and Marauder are probably relatively better than the Annihilator by a greater margin than those stats would imply.

It's also probably why the Cyclops has a higher peak than the MAD-IIC- SRM bombing and quad UAC5 will make more out of a game with good MM than something with low DPS or with bigger heat limitations.

#58 Zergling

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 07:01 AM

View PostAggravated Assault Mech, on 09 August 2017 - 06:44 AM, said:

Yes I agree. It also bears mentioning that these scores are a product of the best 10 games, so reflective of upper potential in ideal circumstances rather than average performance. Annihilator being so slow will probably have more volatility than a faster mech like the MAD-IIC or Cyclops. Annihilator might have more armor and firepower, but those 10 best games will be offset by more potato games where you're bowled over or left behind in a stomp. IIRC Chris or Russ said something to that effect about the Dire during the last town hall.

Cyclops and Marauder are probably relatively better than the Annihilator by a greater margin than those stats would imply.

It's also probably why the Cyclops has a higher peak than the MAD-IIC- SRM bombing and quad UAC5 will make more out of a game with good MM than something with low DPS or with bigger heat limitations.


It's difficult to make solid assessments based on Event Leaderboard data, due to there being different variables affecting each of them.

Eg, Kodiak, Phoenix Hawk, Viper, Cyclops and Night Gyr leaderboards had better rewards than later events, so naturally they'd be more competitive with more players participating, which would inflate the scores to some degree.
Or the Civil War leaderboard being 4 chassis with 7 leaderboards each, which diluted the participating players, as you already mentioned.
Or that the Civil War leaderboard was done after Skill Tree; due to the Survival tree, the average health per mech has gone up, which means average scores should have gone up.

There's a whole lot of things that should be kept in mind, although that doesn't mean looking at the leaderboards are useless, just that there are a bunch of caveats to assessment.
Some things are obvious enough that solid conclusions can be made though, like saying the Annihilator isn't overpowered and that the Uziel is underpowered.


In regards to the Cyclops and Marauder IIC, here's the top 50 scores averaged, per variant:

Marauder IIC:
MAD-IIC = 2828
MAD-IIC-A = 2632
MAD-IIC-B = 2099
MAD-IIC-C = 2054
MAD-IIC-D = 2559
MAD-IIC-SC = 2782
MAD-IIC-8 = 2247

Cyclops:
CP-11-A = 2534
CP-10-Q = 2909
CP-10-Z = 2436
CP-11-A-DC = 2442
CP-11-P = 2371
CP-S = 3079

Best Marauder IICs variants are the first version and the Scorch; somehow laser vomit ended up being better than LBX40+SRM24 or Dual Gauss/ERPPC.
Best Cyclops variants are the SRM bomber 10-Q and quad ballistic Sleipnir.

#59 Chados

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 07:06 AM

A lot of people don't run Uziels and Cougars for the same reason you don't see Vindicators. Bad reputations. That depresses the leaderboard scores. And the Uziel isn't friendly to the style of play that most people running them want-they want a hardcore tank, Centurion-style. Uziels have the durability of your average Shadowcat. In fact, the SHC is, in my opinion, their Clan analogue. High mobility, high agility, great fragility. If you think of the Uziel as a Shadowcat and play it similarly it does better. And it benefits disproportionately from having its survivability tree and speed tweak nodes maxed, which tells you where it needs buffs badly to compete with high end mediums.

I made it to 5th on one of the Uziel boards at one point (ended 20th when I couldn't play the last two days) and no way am I a good enough medium pilot to do that consistently, on most leaderboard events I don't even place. That tells you how few people were running the Uziel during the event. I barely saw any other than mine during solo queue drops.

#60 Zergling

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 07:21 AM

View PostChados, on 09 August 2017 - 07:06 AM, said:

Uziels have the durability of your average Shadowcat. In fact, the SHC is, in my opinion, their Clan analogue. High mobility, high agility, great fragility. If you think of the Uziel as a Shadowcat and play it similarly it does better. And it benefits disproportionately from having its survivability tree and speed tweak nodes maxed, which tells you where it needs buffs badly to compete with high end mediums.


Yeah, I'm gonna have to disagree totally with that; while I don't think the Shadow Cat is a very good mech, it is still far better than the Uziel.

The last time the Shadow Cat was in a leaderboard event, it scored similar to the Cicada and Blackjack, better than the Shadow Hawk, Hunchback, Centurion, Griffin, Enforcer, Wolverine, Crab, Viper, Trebuchet, Kintaro, Ice Ferret, Vindicator and Phoenix Hawk (in that order).
The only mediums that actually scored better than it were the Nova, Hunchback IIC and Stormcrow.

Edited by Zergling, 09 August 2017 - 07:24 AM.






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