58 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

Snowbluff, on 24 August 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

NO! This is an unacceptable roll of the dice mechanism that you should have your pilot's license revoked.

Don't up upvote this either! I see your likes down there. Do you know what a shitshow this game this game would be? Oh sure, you're looking at a meta, but the meta is mutable when people know you're out to counter it, and ACs crack up your ****** mechanics brand armor when you thought the laser meta would keep your safe.

Well, yes. I am half-sure you're poking fun at the meta chasers, but I strongly feel that the meta should be mutable. A static meta is a boring one. Giving tools to the players to flip the tables against an overuse of a specific loadout forces a response by players to change things up. Forces a diversification of metas, or, at the very least, promotes mixed weapon type loadouts.

It might be "suboptimal" in any given range bracket, and not as intuitive to use, but if a build can partially defeat an armor type, it sure beats fighting that armor type with the weapon it is designed to counter and having no other options to throw at it.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 24 August 2017 - 01:42 PM.

[Snowbluff]

Pariah Devalis, on 24 August 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

Well, yes. I am half-sure you're poking fun at the meta chasers, but I strongly feel that the meta should be mutable. A static meta is a boring one. Giving tools to the players to flip the tables against an overuse of a specific loadout forces a response by players to change things up. Forces a diversification of metas, or, at the very least, promotes mixed weapon type loadouts.

It might be "suboptimal" in any given range bracket, and not as intuitive to use, but if a build can partially defeat an armor type, it sure beats fighting that armor type with the weapon it is designed to counter and having no other options to throw at it.

People are still upvoting this?! What is wrong with this community.

Listen, it's a bad mechanic no matter how you roll it. It's just *******. There's no rational use of this. Lasers and Ballastics have their place in this game. If you go in with the wrong armor type, you are screwed. If you go in with the wrong weapon type, you are screwed. It's BAD. There is NO counter play. You are rolling DICE when you are hitting the drop button. It's like an exaggerated, exacerbated version of taking a brawling only build and all of the LRMers on your team upvote Polar. It's nonsense.

Hell, some mech don't even have the option to run a variety of weapons. HELL, your conceited notion that mixed loadouts is a must is nonsense.

[FLG 01]

Unfortunately most of the new defensive technology is still in the protoytpe phase during the FCCW. I am not sure on this but since PGI wants to increase the TTK (and most of the community too, I guess), perhaps one should allow defensive prototype tech.

There are working prototypes of heavy FF (IS), hardened (IS), reflective and reactive (C/IS) armor well before the Jihad. Same goes for armored components (C/IS), CASE II (C/IS), Angel ECM (C/IS), Nova CEWS (C), Blue Shield PFD (IS), and Harjel (C).

I am not saying we need all of them; some might be hard to implement anyway. I am just saying some might be worth a thought.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

People are still upvoting this?! What is wrong with this community.

Listen, it's a bad mechanic no matter how you roll it. It's just *******. There's no rational use of this. Lasers and Ballastics have their place in this game. If you go in with the wrong armor type, you are screwed. If you go in with the wrong weapon type, you are screwed. It's BAD. There is NO counter play. You are rolling DICE when you are hitting the drop button. It's like an exaggerated, exacerbated version of taking a brawling only build and all of the LRMers on your team upvote Polar. It's nonsense.

Hell, some mech don't even have the option to run a variety of weapons. HELL, your conceited notion that mixed loadouts is a must is nonsense.

It's inevitable, given enough timeskips.

What it would do is make energy and ballistic boating suffer the same risks as missile boating- that is, they'd be risking a defensive counter. Being able to substantially mitigate X damage type is rather handy in that regard.

A meta without predictable "bests" is a Holy Grail of balance, although generally defensive modifiers don't get you all the way there, they're a lot better than a counter-free meta.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 24 August 2017 - 02:29 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Snowbluff, on 24 August 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

People are still upvoting this?! What is wrong with this community.

Listen, it's a bad mechanic no matter how you roll it. It's just *******. There's no rational use of this. Lasers and Ballastics have their place in this game. If you go in with the wrong armor type, you are screwed. If you go in with the wrong weapon type, you are screwed. It's BAD. There is NO counter play. You are rolling DICE when you are hitting the drop button. It's like an exaggerated, exacerbated version of taking a brawling only build and all of the LRMers on your team upvote Polar. It's nonsense.

Hell, some mech don't even have the option to run a variety of weapons. HELL, your conceited notion that mixed loadouts is a must is nonsense.

Hell, it's almost like someone walked up to you and slapped you in the face, given how personal you seem to be responding to the concept. You don't like the idea, I get that. You're entitled to your opinion. Clearly others agree with mine, even if you don't. Respect that, just like I respect yours, even if I disagree with it.

There is counterplay in how you build your mechs. Some mechs will not be able to adapt to a hybrid build well, this is true. For example, a Grasshopper against reflective armor would be at a massive disadvantage. On the other hand, the guy who went reflective would, in turn, be at a serious disadvantage against laser guy's allies who brought missile heavy platforms. God forbid a team covers each others weaknesses. Screw that, right? Further, any Reactive armor guy would get cut in half by that Grasshopper, because he is covering missile guy's weakness. Crazy!

It's called giving tools to the players. You want to be extra durable against SRM splat mechs? Go reactive. However, now there is a place for energy brawlers outside of the Nova or select light mechs. You don't want to deal with lazvom? Go reflective, but now you're weak against that guy over there with a Gauss Rifle. More importantly, if everyone and their mother keeps using the same builds on every mech, there's an appropriate counter to mitigate your risk against it, but, being weak against other builds, means there is immediate opportunity to counter the counter.

Yes. Countering the counter is a thing.

There is counter play. Your complaint, if I understand it right, is you consider it to be RNG as to what you're fighting against. You would be right, to a degree. However, it also opens the opportunity to create depth in the mechlab and in gameplay. For example: You're dropping against IS in FW on Alpine Peaks. You know the enemy team is probably going to be spamming the ever living hell out of quirked ERLLas. You can make an educated guess about the enemies' likely primary configuration and select mechs in that drop deck for that. You'll mitigate the laser spam, but if the enemy team expects you to get reflective, they can just as easily preemptively counter with ballistic spam instead.

Or, and this is nuts, I know... you can hedge your bets and stick to FF or Standard armor and just take a normal, balanced amount of damage from all sources. It isn't like you cannot opt to take that, you know.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 24 August 2017 - 02:33 PM.

[SpessMarine]

Where are my Arrow IV missiles?! Remember her?

[Brain Cancer]

Arrow IV's are in the same place easily mounted Heavy Gauss and LB-20X are.

Coding limbo, cause we cannot into splitcrit mounts.

[Gaius Cavadus]

Just reading all of this stuff makes me hope for the 3250 time jump that the tech base is drastically reduced and brought down to a single unified one resembling IS level 2 (although IS level 1 is best).

[Snowbluff]

Pariah Devalis, on 24 August 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

Hell, it's almost like someone walked up to you and slapped you in the face, given how personal you seem to be responding to the concept. You don't like the idea, I get that. You're entitled to your opinion. Clearly others agree with mine, even if you don't. Respect that, just like I respect yours, even if I disagree with it.

There is counterplay in how you build your mechs. Some mechs will not be able to adapt to a hybrid build well, this is true. For example, a Grasshopper against reflective armor would be at a massive disadvantage. On the other hand, the guy who went reflective would, in turn, be at a serious disadvantage against laser guy's allies who brought missile heavy platforms. God forbid a team covers each others weaknesses. Screw that, right? Further, any Reactive armor guy would get cut in half by that Grasshopper, because he is covering missile guy's weakness. Crazy!

It's called giving tools to the players. You want to be extra durable against SRM splat mechs? Go reactive. However, now there is a place for energy brawlers outside of the Nova or select light mechs. You don't want to deal with lazvom? Go reflective, but now you're weak against that guy over there with a Gauss Rifle. More importantly, if everyone and their mother keeps using the same builds on every mech, there's an appropriate counter to mitigate your risk against it, but, being weak against other builds, means there is immediate opportunity to counter the counter.

Yes. Countering the counter is a thing.

There is counter play. Your complaint, if I understand it right, is you consider it to be RNG as to what you're fighting against. You would be right, to a degree. However, it also opens the opportunity to create depth in the mechlab and in gameplay. For example: You're dropping against IS in FW on Alpine Peaks. You know the enemy team is probably going to be spamming the ever living hell out of quirked ERLLas. You can make an educated guess about the enemies' likely primary configuration and select mechs in that drop deck for that. You'll mitigate the laser spam, but if the enemy team expects you to get reflective, they can just as easily preemptively counter with ballistic spam instead.

Or, and this is nuts, I know... you can hedge your bets and stick to FF or Standard armor and just take a normal, balanced amount of damage from all sources. It isn't like you cannot opt to take that, you know.

It's an insult to my intelligence that you think this is a cogent argument, that's for sure. I am insulted, as everyone should be, that anyone thinks this would have a place in a competitive game. It's a fine idea for a Single Player campaign, where the objective is to bring the right loadout for a set of specific threats. Instead, you have to think from a more competitive aspect.

I can't do anything about taking out a Crab, only to find the enemy team has loaded up reflective because they think lasers are OP. Whole mechs would be cut out of the game.

Of course, it's far to swingy in the first place. If it has any effect on one particular weapon over another, then I am always right. It's not like you pick a mech after you pick the map. I can't anticipate ERLL if I don't know what map people will be going for. After that, I'm in a match where my reflective armor happens, BY PURE CHANCE, to make some enemies effectively sticks against me.

Of course, we both know how monumentally stupid it would be if it was the case we could choose the map. Then it become rock paper scissor. So, I know they've gotten their ERLL builds, so I am bringing reflective armor, but they know that I know, so they brought gauss, but I know that so I brought reactive armor... So now you're drawing lots, trying to guess the number of tautological iterations that will lead to your opponents conclusion, and then counter that.

Ergo, there is no counterplay, no skill, other than the ability to talk out of one's ***, claiming superfluous statements such as "oh yeah, I ran the numbers and I knew that was going to bring ERLL before I clicked the play button."

Then there's that liar above. ****, a properly balanced meta is one based on balanced equipment, not drawing lots. This is so insipid.

Edited by Snowbluff, 24 August 2017 - 08:49 PM.

[evilauthor]

Brain Cancer, on 24 August 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

Arrow IV's are in the same place easily mounted Heavy Gauss and LB-20X are.

Coding limbo, cause we cannot into splitcrit mounts.

Also, all Arrow IVs and other artillery are waiting off map for you or someone else to use their Artillery Strike module.

[Brain Cancer]

Snowbluff, on 24 August 2017 - 08:48 PM, said:

Ergo, there is no counterplay, no skill, other than the ability to talk out of one's ***, claiming superfluous statements such as "oh yeah, I ran the numbers and I knew that was going to bring ERLL before I clicked the play button."

Then there's that liar above. ****, a properly balanced meta is one based on balanced equipment, not drawing lots. This is so insipid.

And then you end up in FP and realize that energy builds are dominant, due to endurance issues- and suddenly, reflective looks really good.

Or your team carries a mix of armor types in QP, and your assault laughs off that laservomit barrage, but you tanked the other guy in your standard armor because he was using UAC's. We won't be able to ID most armor types on sight, after all- so you won't know if it's resistant until you get a solid hit and discover it's either resistant, neutral, or vulnerable armor typing to your weapons loadout.

evilauthor, on 24 August 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

Also, all Arrow IVs and other artillery are waiting off map for you or someone else to use their Artillery Strike module.

What a shame, I'm a better shot at 500m than they are given the travel time, though I'm only firing a single AoE shot at a time.

Including under the docks at Crimson, because I can and all the redsmoke seems to have problems working in tunnels and such. Me, I could just fire a rocket in there. Let it splash you and your buddies around the corner. Or start the pain early on Alpine. Lots of fun uses, even though it wouldn't be the most efficient weapon.

[DerMaulwurf]

I'm not so much missing any weapons, but the alternative Gyroscopes.

XL gyroscope is of course just yet another slots for weight option. Especially since MWO doesn't do gyroscope crits, which negates an important drawback. This would be an obviously powerful, but kinda pedestrian, min-max item.

More interesting is the compact gyroscope, which does the opposite trade. It's not so much the slots (although there are borderline cases, where you can save weight on compact gyro+endo), but the added options for CT hardpoints that would come with it.

[PheonixStorm]

I want Swarm and Thunder LRMS!!!

[MadRover]

Pretty sure Inner Sphere had ER pulse lasers for all sizes at this time period.

[Jay Leon Hart]

MadRover, on 25 August 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

Pretty sure Inner Sphere had ER pulse lasers for all sizes at this time period.

It looks like X-Pulse were prototypes in 3057 with a general availability between 3075-3078.

That's all I can see in the 2009 Tactical Operations and I can't see anything specific in the 2011 TRO: Prototypes.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Pretty sure Inner Sphere had ER pulse lasers for all sizes at this time period.

ER Pulses are Clantech, but never really get to production level anytime soon as development stalls soon after their invention. X-pulses don't hit production level until post-Jihad.

[CanadianCyrus]

What about Variable Speed Pulse Lasers? (Introduced in 3070) They were introduced by WoB but I find their description a bit odd in how they work.

From Sarna:
"Variable Speed Pulse Lasers

Developed by Word of Blake technicians, the Variable Speed Pulse Laser (VSP) family have only been seen on a few units when they first appeared during the Jihad. Similar to a Snub-Nose PPC the VSP inflicts more damage at close range in exchange for a dropoff in damage at longer ranges. Unlike the Snub-Nose PPC, which fires a single bolt of energy, the modified pulse laser system can alter the speed of the pulses fired based on the distance to the target. This allows the Variable Speed Laser to generate more damage and increase the odds of a hit at short range, but the damage and hit probabilities drop off at medium and long range.^[2]
Variable Speed Lasers initially were available only to the Word of Blake and Free Worlds League Military in small, medium, and large sizes. After the Jihad, the weapons would soon be used throughout the Inner Sphere by the thirty-second century."

So I'm guessing the VSPs have the ability to increase their pulse speed for more damage at the cost of range. It would be interesting to treat them sort of like a energy Ultra AC (MWO mechanic wise) where if you double tap while the laser is firing, it speeds up the pulses for more damage but lowers the optimal range just for that single firing of the laser.

[CanadianCyrus]

Other weapons of interest:
Description[edit]

The Plasma Rifle was developed by the Capellan Confederation. Based upon their man-portable version, the Confederation was able to create what is essentially a massive Flamer.
Plasma weapons use the power of the fusion engine or power amplifiers to power an electromagnetic accelerator that fires a stream, pulse or toroid of plasma (i.e. very hot, energetic, and excited matter). The plasma is created by using a lasing process to flash cartridges of plastic foam into white-hot projectiles that cause thermal as well as physical damage. Because this foam ammo is inert, it cannot explode even if it is destroyed.^[2]
The primary damage mechanism of these is thermal transfer; the weapon causes serious burns, and often immediate death of living creatures, and melts or evaporates other materials. The plasma weapons may also have a significant kinetic energy component, that is to say the ionized material is projected with sufficient momentum to cause some secondary impact damage in addition to causing high thermal damage.
In addition to dealing scatter damage, the Plasma Rifle inflicts either 1-6 points of heat or an extra 2-12 points of damage, depending on the unit it strikes.

This weapon is introduced in 3068 for IS.

The Clan version:
Description[edit]

The Plasma Cannon was developed by Clan Diamond Shark based on the man-portable plasma rifle of the Capellan Confederation. Like the Capellan version, the Plasma Cannon uses lasers to super-heat a plastic foam into a volatile "plasma" state which is then launched at a target by magnetic acceleration. Unlike the Capellan version, the Clan Scientists focused exclusively on heat generation, making the Plasma Cannon cause nearly twice as much heat damage on the target.
The only damage mechanism of this weapon is thermal transfer; the weapon causes serious burns, and often immediate death to living creatures, and melts or evaporates other materials. The Plasma Cannon does not have a significant kinetic energy component, that is to say the projectile is not launched with enough force to cause secondary impact damage.

This version might be a bit problematic as PGI doesn't seem to be keen on going all in on heat based damage/shutdowns from outside sources and unlike the Plasma Rifle, the Plasma Canon doesn't deal any actual damage from the weapon itself. This weapon is introduced in 3069. That said there's still a place for this weapon for keeping their opponents suppressed. Half the weight and double the heat (for the target being hit) of the Plasma Rifle while having the ability to heat up mechs from far greater distance than flamers.

Edited by Funzo, 25 August 2017 - 02:46 PM.

[CanadianCyrus]

Edit: sorry this one is considered experimental until 3079.

Another interesting piece of tech to consider with the announcement of bolt-on props in the coming months:

Introduced in the late 31st Century on Solaris VII, the BattleMech Shield (abbreviated as simply as the Shield) is a movable piece of armor that can be mounted on BattleMechs and IndustrialMech's arm actuators. The shield was first introduced as a method to add protection for a MechWarrior fighting in the arenas of Solaris. Shields are primary defensive equipment used to protect a 'Mech from being hit by weapons and some forms of physical attacks.
It was initially developed started in 3065 in the Lyran Alliance. The shield did not go beyond the experimental stage of development until after the Jihad due to the Word of Blake's destructive occupation of Solaris VII. Once the Jihad had ended, Solaris weapons developers would move ahead with Shield Equipment in 3079 and produced it in limited numbers as new form of advance equipment as a option for BattleMech manufacturers.^[4]
The shield allows a MechWarrior to redirect damage from certain parts of the 'Mech to their shield. A 'Mech's computer can be adjusted to have the shield provide various degrees of active defensive protection. While fully active, the shield will prevent any sections it protects from firing its arm- or torso-mounted weapons. This leaves only the head, legs and rear sections to fire any mounted weapons.^[5]

Rules[edit]

• Construction All shield sizes can only be mounted in arm actuator locations for only IndustrialMechs and BattleMechs. Missing Hand Actuators and arms will reduce Damage Absorbance and Damage Capacity of the any size shield by 1. Shields are hardmounted at construction of a 'mech, any speed reduction will be applied per size of the shield and should be calculated in speed the effected unit. Small Shields do not cause a unit to go slow, however only large sizes do. Both Medium and Large Shields reduces a constructed unit by 1 Movement Point, while Large Shields prevents the usage of Jump Jets.^[5]

Game Rules[edit]

• Basic Usage Shields absorb and reflect damage from general attacks from weapons and some physical attacks. Successful attack against area protected by a shield, attack damage value is subtracted against the shield's DA value. (Example: Medium Laser with damage value of 5 hits arm mounting a small shield with DA value of 3. 3 points absorbed by the shield while 2 points damages the section that was intended by the attack.) 1 point is subtracted from the DC. If damage value is greater than DA, then remaining damage record as normal. After regular damage is recorded, 1 is subtracted from the shield's DC. Once the DC or DA is reduced to zero, the shield no longer functional. When weapons using a cluster table, is recorded per damage to area it was protecting. They are not tally together, but per successful hit. Shields can not protect from Charges, Death-from-Above attacks, falling damage, damage from buildings, heat-effect related damage and damage from types of minefields.^[5] Critical Hits A successful critical hits to a Shield will reduce the it's DA by 1 and it's DC by 5. While crits to arm and shoulder 1 is reduced from DA and 1 from DC (double for the shoulder).^[5] Destruction of Shield If a Shield is reduced to zero DA/DC, the shield will still remain part of the Mech's arm. It will continue inflict movement modifiers until the arm or should be destroyed.^[5]

Shield Modes[edit]




Shields have three modes of operations while in game play;

• Active Defense Mode (ADM) With this mode, the shield arm(s) will actively protecting shield arm itself, side-torso shield is attached, center torso, and the Head. Rear, Legs and the opposing arm are not protected. These protected sections can not conduct any Weapons and Physical attacks while shield is in Shield is in Active Defense Mode.^[5]

• Passive Defense Mode (PDM) This mode partially protect the 'Mech, limiting to the shield's mounted arm and the side-torso the arm it attached to. Unlike Active, protected section may use mounted weapon and equipment at a +2 for it's to-attacks rolls. Shield Bash attack ability maybe used while in Passive Mode.^[5]

• Inactive Defense Mode (IDM) Inactive Mode only protects the arm that the shield is mounted on. Weapons attacks from weapon using this arm suffer a +1 to-hit modifier.^[5]

Edited by Funzo, 25 August 2017 - 02:57 PM.