58 replies to this topic

[Clownwarlord]

Use for SNUB PPC? Simple for mechs that need a close range burst of damage and have a limit of hard points. Example if you only have lets say 2 energy hard points and have the tonnage you could do 2 SNUB PPCs but if you have 4 then most will go with 4 Mediums (of whatever type).

[GA1NAX]

Escef, on 20 August 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

They are literally the same damage.

Almost, but cooler, faster CD = Moar))) Damage. And there is a difference between hitting victim with a dustbag or laser surgery.

Edited by GA1NAX, 20 August 2017 - 05:15 AM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

kuma8877, on 19 August 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

I actually have several builds where I overlap a HPPC and SNPPC together. Weird sounding I'm sure, but I can be fairly successful with the combo. They also tuck into CT's nicely. I personally like being able to snap shots off quickly while on the move, so I generally prefer PPC based builds over lasers as my first trigger pull.

I've done the same thing with my BJ-3 and Arrow (though I switched the latter to one SN and two LPPCs), it's a really useful combo.

[Escef]

GA1NAX, on 20 August 2017 - 05:14 AM, said:

Almost, but cooler, faster CD = Moar))) Damage. And there is a difference between hitting victim with a dustbag or laser surgery.

Yeah, that's called better DPS. Depends a lot upon how you use the weapon. DPS is not a big factor in hit-and-fade/poking. In a protracted brawl DPS matters a lot, but that's also the kind of situation where PPFLD can still carry the day. I'm not a great shot with PPCs in general, which makes me reluctant to use them unless the quirks are really good, because plowing that much heat into my sinks for a miss is really bad.

[GA1NAX]

Escef, on 20 August 2017 - 05:31 AM, said:

Yeah, that's called better DPS. Depends a lot upon how you use the weapon. DPS is not a big factor in hit-and-fade/poking. In a protracted brawl DPS matters a lot, but that's also the kind of situation where PPFLD can still carry the day. I'm not a great shot with PPCs in general, which makes me reluctant to use them unless the quirks are really good, because plowing that much heat into my sinks for a miss is really bad.

Agree, but than if we moving towards poke-tarting tactics, rather use HPPC or ERPPC, more damage PPFLD or range as "bang per buck".

[Marcomies]

Why does ER PPC have no minimum range?? I only realized it when someone told me in-game because it had never even occurred to me to check if the extended range version had the same range restriction as every other PPC apart from the one that is specifically meant for close ranges. I really don't get the idea behind it.

[Escef]

Marcomies, on 20 August 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

Why does ER PPC have no minimum range?? I only realized it when someone told me in-game because it had never even occurred to me to check if the extended range version had the same range restriction as every other PPC apart from the one that is specifically meant for close ranges. I really don't get the idea behind it.

From a lore perspective, it's because of the more efficient channeling of the charged particles that make up the PPC bolt. The minimum range on normal PPCs is due to a less effective dampener system. In theory, a normal PPC's dampener system could disengaged, but this is dangerous and can lead to particle feedback destroying the weapon and dealing significant damage to the mech's structure.

From a gameplay perspective, it's because you're paying a 50% heat tax.

[C E Dwyer]

There is no point in SnubPPC's unless you just like the look both of it mounted on your mechs the firing effects and the sound they make.

Worse than LPL's on the whole. they can damage further but the damage done in that bit of extra range is pretty worthless.

Can't really say they're newb friendly, because their pin point nature, and heat, are easily bigger negatives to a new player, than them not having a dead zone.

I guess certain medium ranged sniper light mechs that are hard point starved might have a use for them to reduce exposure, as they take less space, weigh less than two Light PPC's

But I wouldn't take them as your better off with 3 ML's inside their effective range

[Sjorpha]

Only use I've found is pairing AC20 with 2SN for 40 close range pinpoint, it's not super good but on chassis that can poptart (marauder) or twist quickly with a shield side after shooting (YLW, CTF0XP) it's kinda nice.

In every other case I think a LPL is better for the same job.

I'd lower the heat a bit.

Edited by Sjorpha, 21 August 2017 - 02:11 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Khobai, on 19 August 2017 - 11:45 PM, said:

SNPPC sucks because the ISLPL is still a completely overpowered weapon. Its beam duration is so short that it basically makes it a PPFLD weapon. Especially since you can use 3 of them at the same time vs only 2 PPCs.

PPFLD weapons are supposed to have a huge advantage over beam duration weapons, but in the case of the ISLPL they just dont because the beam duration is way too short. ISLPL needs its beam duration increased before you can even attempt to balance SNPPCs and regular PPCs. Otherwise PPCs will always be overshadowed by the ISLPL.

indeed, at those beamdurations the heatefficiency of the LPL simply outshadows many things. And issues that MWO has since a long time.

[The_Dane]

I have 2 SNPPCs on my Cataphract, along with 1 LB10-X, and 3 MLs. Love. It.
I rarely use the MLs because the SNPPC-LB10 combo is pretty potent.

[Silas7]

Nice seeing so much feedback.

[MechaBattler]

Be good if they could get the same heat as PPCs.

[Jackofallpots]

I just tried to run a Snub Nose PPC on my Commando

didnt work out too well

[panzer1b]

Ive never really found any good use for em...

Right now in the IS PPC department the only PPCs i consider competitively viable on any level is the regular, light, and heavy, albeit i kinda gravitate towards the heavy and regular since the lights get 15 PPFLD max without GH kicking in, and 15 PPFLD isnt enough to justify the heat weight or lack of DPS compared to laser weapons. The 20-30 range is where PPFLD has certain advantages (if you poptart obviuously, or even if your mech has agility to poke super quickly and evade 90% of return fire unlike laser burns). The issue with teh snub is that its too hot, and like others have pointed out, is flat out invalidated by the LPL which may as well be PPFLD (noone is going to reliably spread a 0.6s duration burn unless they are already twisting before you fire), and it doesnt have the range advantage that regular PPCs get. The only reason id actually take standard PPCs on IS over LPL is when i need range and for whatever reason dont want to deal with ERLL burn times which aint even that high after patch, so while niche, at least they have clear cut advantages over the LPL which has almost always been the go-to weapon for IS energy combat (with ERML/ML as secondarys ofc). Ofc i still use them occasionally for pure fun, but if im not derping around, i keep the SPPCs off the battlefield along with IS ERPPCs since they suck(im not willing to do 10 dmg for 14ish heat, clan ones meh also since 5 of the damage is splash, but at least 12.5-15 dmg every hit beats 10 for more or less same heat and ability to boat DHS unlike IS).

They really need to drop the heat by a little bit and ill totally consider them useable even if not my thing as i absolutely hate relying on weapons that cant hit out to 500m for decentish damage (not that i dont like to brawl, i sure do, but the way random pugs play im better off taking something thatll contribute when most of the team decided to play mid range or sniper meta for the entire game). Drop teh heat so its a hair more efficient then the regular PPC, and maybee itll be viable, as there is just no incentive to bring em over lasers with that tonnage and heat cost (with the possible 1 exception of synced PPFLD with AC-10/20)...

Edited by panzer1b, 21 August 2017 - 12:26 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 19 August 2017 - 11:45 PM, said:

SNPPC sucks because the ISLPL is still a completely overpowered weapon. Its beam duration is so short that it basically makes it a PPFLD weapon. Especially since you can use 3 of them at the same time vs only 2 PPCs.

PPFLD weapons are supposed to have a huge advantage over beam duration weapons, but in the case of the ISLPL they just dont because the beam duration is way too short. ISLPL needs its beam duration increased before you can even attempt to balance SNPPCs and regular PPCs. Otherwise PPCs will always be overshadowed by the ISLPL.

And then you realize that SNPPC is at 6 tons, whereas the IS LPL is at 7 tons. It's no question that LPL has better range, likewise cooler and easier to use. But you gotta admit, that -1 ton is something that affects builds.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 21 August 2017 - 01:55 PM.

[ingramli]

The6thMessenger, on 21 August 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

And then you realize that SNPPC is at 6 tons, whereas the IS LPL is at 7 tons. It's no question that LPL has better range, likewise cooler and easier to use. But you gotta admit, that -1 ton is something that affects builds.

It is not IS LPL itself "OP", but rather the entire family of the IS lasers. Consider the weight of IS ERML being only 1 ton, with the 6 tons weight of Snub PPC, if you have the hardpoints, you can put 6 ERMLs for a 30 dmg (3X of a PPC) deal in 0.9 second , it is the balance - IS lose on most technologies compare to Clan, but their laser have superior burn time to compensate these. If you want to make snub ppc to be competitive, you should BUFF the snub ppc, not nerf the IS LPL, otherwise, you need to adjust the entire balance of the laser family, AND the technology of Clanners to keep the balance, which would involve massive changes.

[Insanity09]

I generally find that on tonnage starved mechs, where I want a bit more true ppfld, the snub isn't bad... if the mech is quick enough.
To a lesser degree, the snPPC also has a share of the niche for energy hardpoint starved mechs (like the BJ-A). Medium lasers, pulses, ER, or std, weigh a bunch less, but are less effective when you don't have many of them. And of course, less ppfld.

I do tend to favor ppfld. A quick poke might get you most of the LPL damage, but it would get you ALL of a snPPC's damage. With a tad more face time, you'd get all of the LPL damage (perhaps spread?), but extra face time is very dangerous for lights and mediums.
That's the same reason I started using LPPCs on some of my light mechs instead of ERLL. A little less range and damage for less weight, same space, and pure ppfld.
But back to the snub...

While it is true that the LPL is a superior weapon, running mediums and lights, I find that the 7 vs 6 ton difference does matter.
Of course, clan fans will tell you that the tonnage difference doesn't matter at all (so they argue for the isERPPC vs cERPPC), but that isn't what I find on my builds.
Eking out an extra ton for the LPL might mean giving up a heat sink in some cases, or shorting myself of another ML (with limited hardpoints?), and that's a hard trade to make, given that both weapons produce a decent amount of heat (much higher for the snub, but with the extra HS...). Doing it multiple times... hmm. (for every 8 tons... 2 MPL + 4 DHS; 1 snub, 1 ML, 1 DHS; 1 LPL +1 ML/DHS? meh. depends.)

If all I had on the mech were snubs or LPL, then the LPL might still have the edge, but I rarely boat only one weapon. Personal preference.

[The6thMessenger]

ingramli, on 21 August 2017 - 05:56 PM, said:

It is not IS LPL itself "OP", but rather the entire family of the IS lasers. Consider the weight of IS ERML being only 1 ton, with the 6 tons weight of Snub PPC, if you have the hardpoints, you can put 6 ERMLs for a 30 dmg (3X of a PPC) deal in 0.9 second , it is the balance - IS lose on most technologies compare to Clan, but their laser have superior burn time to compensate these. If you want to make snub ppc to be competitive, you should BUFF the snub ppc, not nerf the IS LPL, otherwise, you need to adjust the entire balance of the laser family, AND the technology of Clanners to keep the balance, which would involve massive changes.

I have no contentions of whether the Pulse lasers, the LPL, or IS lasers in general is weak. Rather that -1 ton does affect my decision in piecing together a build, and perhaps that is the main perk of the weapon in the first place.

For example, an Urbanmech. An AC20 is ridiculously troll build, because it comes as too heavy for actually sustainable amount of weapon, it's unlikely that you can put lasers in it with the AC20 having enough ammo to be a worth while build. And you have to sacrifice a considerable amount of armor and/or engine rating to attain the bare minimum free tonnage.

Now the 2x SNPPC, at the cost of being completely hotter - like 6 to 20 heat per shot, the 2x SNPPC can do the same 20 damage and DPS for just 12 tons, and not to worry about ammo, or shave armor or even have low engine. We just need to worry about heat that is solved by extra DHS and discipline, but otherwise it's far sustainable than an AC20 at an urbanmech.

I get that SNPPC needs improvement, but to just flat out dismiss the tonnage difference is ignoring what could possibly be the niche of the weapon.

[HGAK47]

I would quite like to see Snub nose PPC`s gain a bit more range and a little less heat, just a bit of a change. I like the weapon but right now its certainly not that popular. A few tweaks and it gives a bit more options for people I think.