58 replies to this topic

[ingramli]

The6thMessenger, on 21 August 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Now the 2x SNPPC, at the cost of being completely hotter - like 6 to 20 heat per shot, the 2x SNPPC can do the same 20 damage and DPS for just 12 tons, and not to worry about ammo, or shave armor or even have low engine. We just need to worry about heat that is solved by extra DHS and discipline, but otherwise it's far sustainable than an AC20 at an urbanmech.

I get that SNPPC needs improvement, but to just flat out dismiss the tonnage difference is ignoring what could possibly be the niche of the weapon.

On paper 6 ton for 10 dmg PPFLD, no ammo needed is great. But the real problem with snub ppc is that, it is hard to find a mech really suitable to use it. As we know snub ppc is hot, you need a mech that can hit and run as soon as you fire, you may also want to bring a pair of these to make each engagement (moving out from and return to cover) to be favorable. To achieve these, you will want something that is fast, to reduce the face time (it is a no to use snub ppc on heavies/assaults, you get hot with your close range weapon and you are screwed). The outcome is, to fully utilize it, you need a mech to use snub ppc exclusively, hit > run > hide for cooldown > hit, IMO that is the best way to use it, rather than as a side arm.

[DrSaphron]

It also comes down to weapon synergy. Look at other weapons that have a similar range and cooldown profile, the 2 weapons right off the bat that have similar profiles are the AC20 and (A)SRM6. Now suppose you want to do some brawling and you could go with 2 AC20 (ghost heat) or an AC20 and 2 SNPPC (hotter, but nowhere near as hot as AC20 ghost heat). The heat and weight difference (2 tons lighter) as well as the fact that you don't have to load ammo for SNPPCs make them a fantastic choice! With the weight savings you can thus opt for more heat sinks, a bigger motor, more ammo, or perhaps an extra weapon. The combos should become fairly obvious pretty quick.

[DrSaphron]

ingramli, on 21 August 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

On paper 6 ton for 10 dmg PPFLD, no ammo needed is great. But the real problem with snub ppc is that, it is hard to find a mech really suitable to use it. As we know snub ppc is hot, you need a mech that can hit and run as soon as you fire, you may also want to bring a pair of these to make each engagement (moving out from and return to cover) to be favorable. To achieve these, you will want something that is fast, to reduce the face time (it is a no to use snub ppc on heavies/assaults, you get hot with your close range weapon and you are screwed). The outcome is, to fully utilize it, you need a mech to use snub ppc exclusively, hit > run > hide for cooldown > hit, IMO that is the best way to use it, rather than as a side arm.

Gonna disagree with you there, if you are looking at SNPPCs as a Mechs sole source of damage, then yes, you are correct, HOWEVER, since the vast majority of mechs are able to take multiple weapons then your argument is invalid. 2 SNPPCs coupled with an AC20 or even 4 ASRM6 will put a hell of a hurt on any mech on the battlefield, thus asserting your dominance (provided you don't go full potato and just stand there and let them hit you back right in the face). Repeat after me: Run, Hit, Twist!

[ingramli]

DrSaphron, on 21 August 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

It also comes down to weapon synergy. Look at other weapons that have a similar range and cooldown profile, the 2 weapons right off the bat that have similar profiles are the AC20 and (A)SRM6. Now suppose you want to do some brawling and you could go with 2 AC20 (ghost heat) or an AC20 and 2 SNPPC (hotter, but nowhere near as hot as AC20 ghost heat). The heat and weight difference (2 tons lighter) as well as the fact that you don't have to load ammo for SNPPCs make them a fantastic choice! With the weight savings you can thus opt for more heat sinks, a bigger motor, more ammo, or perhaps an extra weapon. The combos should become fairly obvious pretty quick.

For any mech that is able to bring 2 AC20s with reasonable amount of ammo, it simply wont have the speed to hit and run. For brawling, you must at least be fast (so that you can hit and run to cooldown), or able to sustain your dps for a reasonable amount of time (without being too hot). The heat generation of AC20 and Snub ppc is so big that you cant compare it apple to apple, AC20 provide sustainable damage output that is more suited to heavies/assaults that have more free tonnage available, while snub ppc is not nearly as suitable to provide sustained output (you need immense amount of DHS to do so).

[ingramli]

DrSaphron, on 21 August 2017 - 09:04 PM, said:

Gonna disagree with you there, if you are looking at SNPPCs as a Mechs sole source of damage, then yes, you are correct, HOWEVER, since the vast majority of mechs are able to take multiple weapons then your argument is invalid. 2 SNPPCs coupled with an AC20 or even 4 ASRM6 will put a hell of a hurt on any mech on the battlefield, thus asserting your dominance (provided you don't go full potato and just stand there and let them hit you back right in the face). Repeat after me: Run, Hit, Twist!

For maximum alpha, that is the way to go, but....if your foe can survive the alpha, your sustained fire will be limited to your AC20s and/or ASRM6s. That is your choice. For me, i would prefer to have nearly 100% of my guns able to fire continuously on the 100 tonner, rather than a large alpha, but the sustained fire is cut down to 2/3 or even half after landing the alpha, as i take damage on arms/ST even i twist during the reload time.

[The6thMessenger]

ingramli, on 21 August 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

On paper 6 ton for 10 dmg PPFLD, no ammo needed is great. But the real problem with snub ppc is that, it is hard to find a mech really suitable to use it. As we know snub ppc is hot, you need a mech that can hit and run as soon as you fire, you may also want to bring a pair of these to make each engagement (moving out from and return to cover) to be favorable. To achieve these, you will want something that is fast, to reduce the face time (it is a no to use snub ppc on heavies/assaults, you get hot with your close range weapon and you are screwed). The outcome is, to fully utilize it, you need a mech to use snub ppc exclusively, hit > run > hide for cooldown > hit, IMO that is the best way to use it, rather than as a side arm.

Here's the thing, SNPPC doesn't need to be useful for all mechs, it just needs a reason to be there. And being the tonnage-saving weapon, it can be enough to be of use.

[ingramli]

The6thMessenger, on 21 August 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

Here's the thing, SNPPC doesn't need to be useful for all mechs, it just needs a reason to be there. And being the tonnage-saving weapon, it can be enough to be of use.

I do agree on this one, and as i said, it is a niche weapon now only good in specific build, to make it worthwhile to bring one/two of these, one must take full advantage of these - PPFLD, being able to twist and run away as soon as you fire, and avoid its weakness - poor damage per heat ratio, i.e. you are not going to compete with the opponent with DPS (sustained fire), rather you should limit the window of trading as small as possible to mitigate the return fire taken.

TLDR - you need a fast mech (light) to get the most out of its strength.

[Hit the Deck]

DrSaphron, on 21 August 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

It also comes down to weapon synergy. Look at other weapons that have a similar range and cooldown profile, the 2 weapons right off the bat that have similar profiles are the AC20 and (A)SRM6. Now suppose you want to do some brawling and you could go with 2 AC20 (ghost heat) or an AC20 and 2 SNPPC (hotter, but nowhere near as hot as AC20 ghost heat). The heat and weight difference (2 tons lighter) as well as the fact that you don't have to load ammo for SNPPCs make them a fantastic choice! With the weight savings you can thus opt for more heat sinks, a bigger motor, more ammo, or perhaps an extra weapon. The combos should become fairly obvious pretty quick.

Firing 1AC/20+2SPPc is actually hotter than firing 2AC/20 with GH, 26 vs 23.52 points of heat.

That said, you can fit the former more often than the latter on variety of 'Mechs.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

no minimum range PPFLD... lasers spread damage, ppc doesn't... THAT is why.

[ingramli]

As a combo with AC20/SRM on heavies/assaults, LPL is plain better than snub ppc, it is hard to argue the other way round. They both do 10 pt of damage for the alpha, but Snub PPC is hotter, even you use the 1 ton difference to fit a DHS on it. The 0.6 sec face face time is not as important as whether you can land the 2nd/3rd shot including sPPC/LPL or not, if you cant fire, you are outgunned, simple and straightforward.

[Jingseng]

In deciding between ER ppc and Snub, the question is intended use... more specifically, do you need the range? If you are fast, agile, and boating short range punch, then why pay an extra ton and 5 extra (base) heat for the ER over the snub? =P

Likewise, with enough tonnage and hardpoints, synergize with the Light PPC - in your over lap, have your 15 dmg for 15 heat base. Light will cover your long range needs while closing/waiting for closing, snub will cover your minimum range gap. Overall better heat management and versatility for 2 extra tons.

You could otherwise say, what's the point of light ppc - it's a half ppc without the range of the ER. (overlooking slots and tonnage).

[ingramli]

Jingseng, on 21 August 2017 - 10:05 PM, said:

In deciding between ER ppc and Snub, the question is intended use... more specifically, do you need the range? If you are fast, agile, and boating short range punch, then why pay an extra ton and 5 extra (base) heat for the ER over the snub? =P

Likewise, with enough tonnage and hardpoints, synergize with the Light PPC - in your over lap, have your 15 dmg for 15 heat base. Light will cover your long range needs while closing/waiting for closing, snub will cover your minimum range gap. Overall better heat management and versatility for 2 extra tons.

You could otherwise say, what's the point of light ppc - it's a half ppc without the range of the ER. (overlooking slots and tonnage).

PPC + Snub PPC sounds good in theory, but in real life, with the exception of assaults which have limited control on the range of engagement, people build their mech to excel in a specific range of engagement, having PPC + Snub PPC combos means you have half of your weapons as dead weight most of the time (with the exception of 90~270M), but if you are on a fast mech that have control on the range of engagement, i would rather just brings Snub PPCs and excels in 0~270M with no minimum range (and also lighter in tonnage).

[Dead Tom Kerensky]

I recommend trying them in the Arrow. Poptart until you open something up and then crit seek with 6 light machine guns for the kill.

[Brain Cancer]

It says something that the ER PPC, HPPC, and PPC all ended up cooler running than TT, yet the LPPC/SNPPCs don't.

It's not as if that single ton saved is gonna let you run cooler enough to makeup for it.

[The6thMessenger]

Brain Cancer, on 22 August 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

It's not as if that single ton saved is gonna let you run cooler enough to makeup for it.

True. But still something that we consider on builds.

[Khobai]

Quote

It says something that the ER PPC, HPPC, and PPC all ended up cooler running than TT, yet the LPPC/SNPPCs don't.

LPL makes all of those look bad except the ERPPC.

LPL is just way too good compared to non-ER PPCs thats the real problem.

[SirSoggyDog]

I find SPPCs to be a good backup to dual HPPC builds that don't have enough hardpoints for several MLs. For example, I got a twin HPPC, twin SPPC Warhammer, and it's preforms consistently well. I personally like the extra PPFLD on an already PPFLD heavy mech, and the extra two tons over a pair of LPLs is nice. I think one of the biggest things for the SPPCs is the fact that you can twist the instant you pull the trigger, and that you don't have to adjust for two different weapon velocities.

[Methanoid]

fire and forget weapon, handy for smaller mechs that dont want their position to be made obvious.