51 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Jun Watarase, on 20 August 2017 - 11:45 PM, said:

Why isnt this an issue with Crysis or other cryengine games? Surely people would have noticed if they shot someone's leg in crysis and it missed because the hitboxes arent lined up correctly?

My guess is that most shooters have rather simple models and hit boxes so it doesn't actually matter. (If they have IK in the first place).

Likewise, multiplayer "correctness" in MW3 or MW4 was probably also not really a high priority, if it didn't work, so what, MP is an extra feature, the real thing you bought was the single player campaign.

[TELEFORCE]

I'm very disappointed that the work on IK has been cancelled. It would really make the game look a lot nicer instead of 'mechs clipping their feet into the terrain or standing on half a foot or one leg. Can't see myself getting another 'mech pack now as a result of this.

[Methanoid]

Smites, on 20 August 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors. I have a simple question. Are we really likely to see custom geometry with the proposed bolt-on system when Inverse Kinematics are, at the very least, infeasible and resource intensive? How can we add, for example, another shield arm to a Centurion without complicating hit-reg? Or will it be minor things - like some extra spikey pauldrons?

ofc we will see custom geometry.

[Alistair Winter]

AncientRaig, on 20 August 2017 - 06:36 PM, said:

"Inverse kinematics are infeasible and resource intensive" Meanwhile, back in 1999.........

It makes me sad to see people who actually believe PGI's ******** about Mech IK, knockdowns, and all that being "impossible" or "unfeasible".

"Free for all deathmatches are infeasible". Meanwhile, back in 1993....

And (according to Wikipedia), back in 1974....


PGI is basically saying that they don't know how to make significant changes to the game anymore. The business model that is based entirely on mech packs and cockpit items isn't a strategical choice so much as a last resort, because they don't have the expertise to do anything else. It seems like the answer to many questions is "We don't know how to do that", not "We don't want to do that." Even things that would seem trivial, like IK.

Custom [visual] geometry seems like something they can do. But we may find out that many things people have been requesting (e.g. custom gun barrels, glowing Atlas eyes, custom limbs) are impossible, and there's only a certain number of things PGI can do without breaking their game.

Methanoid, on 21 August 2017 - 03:56 AM, said:

ofc we will see custom geometry.

This doesn't explain why it's taken them so long. PGI staff members discussed custom geometry years ago. It's interesting that they're considering it in 2018, when it would arguably have yielded much, much greater profits in 2015.

[Steve Pryde]

Why should I buy cosmetic things for my mechs that im not even see ingame except in the hangar? But yeah, PGI dissapointing like always.

Edited by Steve Pryde, 21 August 2017 - 05:10 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Steve Pryde, on 21 August 2017 - 05:09 AM, said:

Why should I buy cosmetic things for my mechs that im not even see ingame except in the hangar? But yeah, PGI dissapointing like always.

Sometimes its better to not see parts of your Mech from the cockpit (Gun barrel - misery, Zeus arms) on the other hand some stuff like the Rotary on ShadowHawk or the Hunch of the Back are great

[Y E O N N E]

o0m9, on 20 August 2017 - 07:15 PM, said:

IK was canned because Cryengine only applies them client side while the server just orients the leg hitboxes normally. This means you can put an alpha into a leg and miss because the hitboxes don't line up with the visual model on your screen.

And that is different from custom geo suggesting new hitboxes that don't actually exist...how?

[Johnny Z]

It almost sounds like these "bolt ons" will take a hit before being blown off? Will this improve survival at all possibly?

Also I am surprised there isn't a funny "bolt on" meme by now.

Edited by Johnny Z, 21 August 2017 - 08:08 AM.

[Acehilator]

Custom geo will be minor changes without hitbox changes. If it is going to even be worth it within those constraints, we will see. Maybe Alex can pull off something nice.

Edited by Acehilator, 21 August 2017 - 09:02 AM.

[JC Daxion]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 21 August 2017 - 02:27 AM, said:

ok ...IK is canceled ...to many Problems with the Hitreg ..ok for Mechs with IK play in Future HBS Games

Turn based unity engine.. and FPS cry engine.. they have nothing in common in the way the work at that level.. I don't even know if HBS game even uses hitboxes in even close to the same way. It is much more likely a number generator, and animations, (though the animations can take hitboxes/collision into account, but its totally different in many ways.. A mobile twisting moving hitbox verse a stationary mech, that is getting a diceroll, and then playing a set animation because of said diceroll.

go listen to the june or july talk with the animators, and listen to what they are talking about in it about melee, and getting it to (look right) It's all about meshing 2 set animations on a block. That is an entirely different monster than 2 mobile mechs, not tied to a Hex/location. It's basically night and day.

Like them talking about Knockbacks, and the giant can of worms it would open if a knockback moved the mech to just one hex back. Instead they do Knockdowns because of many behind the scenes things.

Acehilator, on 21 August 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

Custom geo will be minor changes without hitbox changes. If it is going to even be worth it within those constraints, we will see. Maybe Alex can pull off something nice.

I could see if as something similar to the decal system.

[Smites]

Alright, so I have to ask. Decals took a lot of time to work on and are definitely a nice addition - but they're 2D. They're extra paint on your mech. Is it feasible that we can expect what is the equivalent to 3D decals in a timely manner while working with Crytek™ or might this be thrown into the same closet as Inverse Kinematics, Energy Draw and Info War? Would many of you buy this in addition to decals? And if they make it into this game and you can buy them... what would you like to add? Spikes? A second shield arm to the Centurion? Neon lights?

Edited by Smites, 21 August 2017 - 01:51 PM.

[Acehilator]

Smites, on 21 August 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

Alright, so I have to ask. Decals took a lot of time to work on and are definitely a nice addition - but they're 2D. They're extra paint on your mech. Is it feasible that we can expect what is the equivalent to 3D decals in a timely manner while working with Crytek™ or might this be thrown into the same closet as Inverse Kinematics, Energy Draw and Info War? Would many of you buy this in addition to decals?

This is nowhere near the scale of IK, and not even remotely connected to game design/game features like Energy Draw and Info War. No hitbox changes = requires only client-side modifications. Should be possible to do, even for PGI.

Theoretically I am interested, but I really need to see some WIP stuff. The 3D guys have gotten better at their stuff imho, fingers crossed.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Cathy, on 21 August 2017 - 02:34 AM, said:

Well it's pretty obvious really, they can't make money out of I.K or knock downs.

But they can make money out of spiky armour cosmetics because there is bound to be enough cretins playing the game that really want to turn it into Warhammer 40K

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war are only cosmetics...

[Johnny Z]

Smites, on 21 August 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

Alright, so I have to ask. Decals took a lot of time to work on and are definitely a nice addition - but they're 2D. They're extra paint on your mech. Is it feasible that we can expect what is the equivalent to 3D decals in a timely manner while working with Crytek™ or might this be thrown into the same closet as Inverse Kinematics, Energy Draw and Info War? Would many of you buy this in addition to decals? And if they make it into this game and you can buy them... what would you like to add? Spikes? A second shield arm to the Centurion? Neon lights?

Yep its cool but so far down my personal list of what would make the game great its hard to take seriously.

Edited by Johnny Z, 21 August 2017 - 04:58 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

JC Daxion, on 21 August 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

Turn based unity engine.. and FPS cry engine.. they have nothing in common in the way the work at that level.. I don't even know if HBS game even uses hitboxes in even close to the same way. It is much more likely a number generator, and animations, (though the animations can take hitboxes/collision into account, but its totally different in many ways.. A mobile twisting moving hitbox verse a stationary mech, that is getting a diceroll, and then playing a set animation because of said diceroll.

go listen to the june or july talk with the animators, and listen to what they are talking about in it about melee, and getting it to (look right) It's all about meshing 2 set animations on a block. That is an entirely different monster than 2 mobile mechs, not tied to a Hex/location. It's basically night and day.

Like them talking about Knockbacks, and the giant can of worms it would open if a knockback moved the mech to just one hex back. Instead they do Knockdowns because of many behind the scenes things.




I could see if as something similar to the decal system.

of Course ,and a mech has more Hitboxes as a Infantry Soldier in BF 4 or a Tank and for IK we must have Time and People with experience...PGIs Staff only Experience in marketing , not gamedesign ..next Stop individual Geometry and this bring nothing problems with Hitboxes ???? the Next Manpower bring in a Project with no great Future????

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 21 August 2017 - 08:14 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

JC Daxion, on 21 August 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

Turn based unity engine.. and FPS cry engine.. they have nothing in common in the way the work at that level.. I don't even know if HBS game even uses hitboxes in even close to the same way. It is much more likely a number generator, and animations, (though the animations can take hitboxes/collision into account, but its totally different in many ways.. A mobile twisting moving hitbox verse a stationary mech, that is getting a diceroll, and then playing a set animation because of said diceroll.

go listen to the june or july talk with the animators, and listen to what they are talking about in it about melee, and getting it to (look right) It's all about meshing 2 set animations on a block. That is an entirely different monster than 2 mobile mechs, not tied to a Hex/location. It's basically night and day.

Like them talking about Knockbacks, and the giant can of worms it would open if a knockback moved the mech to just one hex back. Instead they do Knockdowns because of many behind the scenes things.




I could see if as something similar to the decal system.

I think it's really a lot less an engine issue than the total difference in game type.

A turn based game can pre-define all the possible animations easily, you have tight control on positioning and timing for your animations. That makes the animation part a bit easier.

Since everything is turn based, there can be a dedicated phase were one of the game clients or the server calculates what is going to happen, informs the clients, and they can start playing the animations and what not to show what happened.

In MW:O, there are countless of variables for positioning and timing, and every player has a different signal delay between him and the server (and then from the server to each individual player). Each game client must "guess" whta the next actions of the other players, since he'll only get the information a few milliseconds (or a lot of milliseconds) later, and when the server reports what actually happened, it must update the simulated reality - and the server must decide how to combine the reports of the different clients into a cohesive thing that is ideally close enough that no one notices the differences between the clients.

[Jingseng]

Think of it as 3D decals

[Karl Streiger]

I don't understand why every bit of a Mech need to be super accurate for hitboxes. Seriously do you think a shot that hit a "visual" gimick like a wing or antena of a mech should full damage or should it be considered as a miss.

Do you shoot at the feet of a mech or the leg? Some shots might hit the feet but again this is a low percentage of the total shots fired at a enemy Mechs leg.

So the moving legs need a simple core hitbox - not a super precise one, shots that might hit the last pixel of a mechs "3d" model don't count - because this is a glancing blow and don't deal damage - only full body shots count

Maybe the difference would be 0.1% of what people feel. Same for a IK were the hitbox does not 100% fit the visuals. 0.1-1% of your shots might miss.... considering the better visual look of the game i think 1% is a price I will pay.
When its again 1% for simpler hitboxes - and another 1% for as faster hit calculation - I would pay the price also.

[Anjian]

Smites, on 20 August 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors. I have a simple question. Are we really likely to see custom geometry with the proposed bolt-on system when Inverse Kinematics are, at the very least, infeasible and resource intensive? How can we add, for example, another shield arm to a Centurion without complicating hit-reg? Or will it be minor things - like some extra spikey pauldrons?

Absolutely not on the resource intensive part.

There are mech games that run on your freaking smartphone with inverse kinematics.

Edited by Anjian, 23 August 2017 - 02:03 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Anjian, on 23 August 2017 - 02:02 AM, said:

Absolutely not on the resource intensive part.

There are mech games that run on your freaking smartphone with inverse kinematics.

I only see hovering walkers