48 replies to this topic

[AssaultPig]

Savage Wolf, on 23 August 2017 - 02:10 AM, said:

Yes, that's why I tried to fix it. Any comment on that?

I think it would still be redundant with skirmish

[HGAK47]

Methanoid, on 22 August 2017 - 12:55 AM, said:

1 team attacks, 1 team defends an objective, similar to UT99 Assault mode.

i mentioned in a different threat that assault would be better in the above format to avoid deadlocks, 1 team must advance, 1 must defend, have a rectancular(ish) map, 1/2 of it the advance area the other the actual stronghold/base, deep within the base have a generator or other important objective which needs destroyed to win the match for the attackers, wiping out the attackers or letting the time run out being a win for the defenders.

The base in question can have multiple routes inside to advance, 2-3 main entry points which can be defended, areas that the defending team can still defends from if they are pushed back, throw in some sneaky entry points for lights/jumpjet users, basically make it more than just a fortress with 1 door in. Maybe throw in a few optional sub objectives, like destroying some smaller generators that control automated base defences just to make things interesting.

Theres all sorts of ways to make assault a bit better, same for conquest which ideally needs suitable maps made for those capture zones to be contested in better ways.

Man I luv ya (no ****) for bringing that up! Assault mode on Unreal Tourney back in the dial up days! Ahh my sweet early online gaming memories as a kid.
It was epic and it was such a long time ago, the idea was there though and MWO could really use some of the ideas and expand on it.
Incursion might also be an interesting mode if there was a 1 base version attack / defend too.

[Savage Wolf]

AssaultPig, on 23 August 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

I think it would still be redundant with skirmish

Could you please explain why? Why not replace both Skirmish and Assault with this fusion? The way I see it, both of those modes are lacking as a pure combat mode.

[AssaultPig]

Savage Wolf, on 24 August 2017 - 03:39 AM, said:

Could you please explain why? Why not replace both Skirmish and Assault with this fusion? The way I see it, both of those modes are lacking as a pure combat mode.

both modes would play 99% the same; in skirmish the goal is just to kill all the enemies mechs, in your assault concept the goal is the same only you have to stand on a base for a second at the end. Having a win condition that lets you avoid 'shutown in the corner guy' is an alright addition, but these gametypes would play out in similar fashion until it got to that point (and frankly it doesn't seem to be something that happens very much anymore anyway.) Point is, there is no need for both.

[Savage Wolf]

AssaultPig, on 24 August 2017 - 03:44 AM, said:

both modes would play 99% the same; in skirmish the goal is just to kill all the enemies mechs, in your assault concept the goal is the same only you have to stand on a base for a second at the end. Having a win condition that lets you avoid 'shutown in the corner guy' is an alright addition, but these gametypes would play out in similar fashion until it got to that point (and frankly it doesn't seem to be something that happens very much anymore anyway.) Point is, there is no need for both.

Well of course destroying the entire enemy team would still be a victory condition so you'd only ever need to go for the base if the last few mechs tried to hide. Which happens quite often. Or don't really have to be that they hide, they could just be a DC or be far away from the battle. Either way it provides an alternative way to finish a match that is pretty much already decided, so we can get our mech back and get ready for the next battle.
But no, there really isn't a need for two modes of this kind. One pure combat mode is plenty.

[Insanity09]

There are two ways to fix objective game modes so that the objective actually gets played.

First, as I've already pointed at in numerous threads, including above, give an objective victory bonus based on the number of surviving enemy mechs at the end. At it's best, every winning team member would get a huge payout for that with very little effort. The complaint that you don't get any rewards for a quick win would just melt away.

There is a second way to fix objective modes, one that would I'm sure people would scream bloody murder about. Personally, I would never implement this 2nd thing unless the 1st method were already in place.

Realize that MWO is a game, and the designers are trying to give a varying game experiences to people with the different modes. A worthy goal that is currently not being well met (because, as people have mentioned, everybody tends to treat all game modes as skirmish).

Like the first change, this is simple. The ONLY way to win an objective mode contest is by completing the objective. If you kill the entire enemy team, it is a tie (or..., see below).
Brutal and harsh, but effective if we want people to actually do the objectives.

Escort mode kinda already works this way, though without the gentle tie option. Kill the entire enemy team but still lose because the VIP got away.

Minor win? A case could be made for a different type of victory, call is "marginal victory" or "lesser victory", that would give better match score results and rewards than a tie (or loss), but not as good as a full win.

I suspect Domination would see such an outcome often.

I would like to believe that the first method would be sufficient to get people to play the objectives. However, cynical thoughts keep fogging my rose-colored glasses.

[Savage Wolf]

Actually, there is a third. At least for some modes. It's called respawns. With respawns, you cannot just simply roll over the enemy and then slowly do the objective afterwards. They'll be back and will take the objective back. With enough respawns, the objective should be completed before the number of mechs are depleted. It works wonders for conquest in FW.

But this wasn't about fixing an objective mode. Assault wouldn't really be worth it for objective play anyway. And no matter how much us objective game mode lovers want it, PGI can't figure out why objectives doesn't work with the same formula skirmish does. And also a huge part of the player base couldn't be bothered. So my suggestion was actually to fix a pure combat mode on the basis of combat, not objectives.

[Insanity09]

I do agree that adding respawns to QP would be quite a change. I personally might enjoy it, but would it make the objectives more attractive?

Respawns are already in FW, and I do not see objectives played more there.

There are a few other issues as well, but that's the crux right there.

Spoiler

Respawns engender longer matches.

Out of the available modes, the only one that gets regular objective play in FW is conquest... which already gets use in QP as well. I have seen domination matches in FW where the team intentionally leaves the circle so they can farm the next wave of enemy mechs. Incursion and assault also get treated as skirmish+. The only time I saw an incursion match in FW won by objective was when there was literally one enemy left, DC'd/afk, at that point it was actually better to blow up the enemy base.

The added complexity of the drop deck adds no real value to the match, and it effectively punishes/discourages (very) new players (they don't have the mechs to fill the deck, and can't really earn long term xp with trials).
Unless you just get to play the same mech over and over. Ugh. If I brought the wrong mech to the map/mode, I sure don't want to play it multiple times.

You'd need to reduce the rewards for kills, assists, damage, spotting, scouting, etc. .... essentially the entire scoring/reward system would need to be redone to prevent massive inflation.
Part of that would be that if the rewards were not cut (and maybe even if they were), you'd also need to totally revamp how PSR changes took place.

And, of course a perennial favorite, there would be another way to show bad sportsmanship regularly. (spawn-camping)

[Savage Wolf]

It certainly works in Conquest, which is also the best designed objective mode in general. Also the only only one, apart from Siege now that I think about it. It makes little difference in Domination and Assault, but those are not objective modes. Those are combat modes with a way to force players to fight. Incursion needs to be fixed so it's a proper objective mode before any other changes will work. And it should also work for Escort.

Farming also detracts from using the objective, but that is the fault of the scoring/rewards system. In general, there are many overall bad design decision in the game that encourages turning all game modes into skirmish.

But if we ever got other good objective game modes than Conquest then it most likely will be better with respawns so that the objective is faster to achieve than enemy team wipe. And rewards needs to change as to not encourage farming. Or be designed as Conquest where you cannot stop yourself from winning.